In case anyone needed more info on these.. I just took a trip to cali and when ig ot there i had not recieved my gloves yet so i borrowed a friends. He happened to have a old set of Grandoe goretex gloves. They were old and beat up but the kept my hands warm and dry. Very comfortable well built gloves. When i got home i recieved my Primo elites and they have everything his did and then some. They are just as comfortable, but even nicer with better leather gripping on the palm and fingers. Also they have zippable liners on the inside that are super worm, and easy to remove. The only downside to the GCS primo elite is that there is no idiot proof looping system to keep the gloves attached to your hand. You have to clip the gloves to your jacket, and my jacket does not have the ability to do that.. So i am going to have to figure out a way to rig up the gloves so i can tie them to my hands so they dont end up getting dropped while on the lift. Shouldnt be too hard, but for 80$ gloves they should come with it.