Thanks for the feedback! yes I'm looking at geartrade. I think they come with the liner but if I decide to get them I'll double check. What do you think about the DC pants compared to these? They're a bit closer to my size, over $10 cheaper, and retail for $30 more. I go snowboarding about 15 times a year and this will be my first season with real snowboard pants. will the DCs cut it for me, or are 686 Smartys really that much better?