Originally Posted by Leo
You're putting words in MY mouth now Ippy. I didn't say you were accusing us of anything. But when you make the assertions that you do in a debate about the design team, you INSINUATE that the design team members are acting in a manner that is highly biased. Yes, of course there will be some bias, but it's not as crazy as you think. A number of us have already told you guys numerous times that the possible bias is offset by these facts:
And since you keep ignoring fact 1... Let me reiterate that NS is not the only product that I have access to for free. So tell me again how I can possibly be biased? Same goes for others on this team. Triple8, how can he possibly be biased just from this design team subject? He BOUGHT many NS boards prior to this. If he's biased, it's from making purchases out if his own pocket.
Another fact you ignored... This forum had plenty NS hype long before the design team that started with Wolf and Myself. You complain now because they included more members? Why? What's the point?
And please, stop insulting my intelligence. You've become quite condescending. No need for that nonsense.
Please keep the personal attacks out of it, you started off okay, but as it went on it started getting a touch personal. Ive only singled out specific people (yourself and snowolf) when you have made a claim against me i found to be incorrect (or abusive). Ive not descended into personal attacks, and have written a great deal already on the matter which would be opportunity enough to "rant" or make personal attacks. Perhaps we should attack the points and not the person? Maybe you'll consider this 'condescending' as well, but i dont see how asking for more rational discussion, and less bickering and name calling is "condescending". Lets just attack the points and not the assumed character of the people making them. Agreed?
And in that spirit, let me attack this one point:
You keep suggesting that im ignoring the point that you guys get hook ups from other brands. But let me be very clear on this.
I have not sad at any point that the people involved in this design team will be biased. This is not my point. Ive been very careful in fact to not say this. I also have great fondness for killclimbz for the work he does in his own free time to educate people on backcountry safety, so I would never call his integrity into question.
But since youre asking me directly, honestly, i dont think you can. I however AWAIT to be proven wrong. This is a very important distinction. I dont think you can be unbiased whilst being offered hookups and being involved in teh design and manufature of a board. BUT I am willing to be proven wrong.
But this wont be done by you TELLING me before hand that you're unbiased, it will be instead be demonstrated by your future actions fully acknowledging and recognising the now extremely close ties between this website and Neversummer. It will be done by you offering similar levels of exposure to other brands and recognising where appropriate that other labels have similar if not better rides for what the [x ride] is trying to deliver.
As i say, you all have your own biases you bring to a ride. We all do. I made the point in the first post of this whole discussion and in fact themed the entire post around this point. But those biases should mean that you're not all going to love R+C. So this will hopefully be reflected in the reviews. So again, this will be one more criteria that will demonstrate fairly your capacity for neutrality.
However, due to the fact that i dont make my living as a fortune teller, i will hold back before i start throwing out any accusation of *personal* bias (nor do i want to put myself in a position where id have to trawl through your post history for examples of bias. Life is too short already).
Thus, the attempt to make me say that you *personally* are biased is a straw man. And so he claim that im ignoring the counter that you get hooked up by other brands is nothing but evasion. Its not the point ive made. Its the point you've both trying to get me to make, though. I should also say, i get hooked up too. I dont think it affects my ability to be neutral and balanced. But, i dont really get to make the judgement on my own neutrality at the end of the day. I can only demonstrate it in what i write and learn from the feedback i receive on it.
Now lets get to the meat of the point i have made. I really think ive said what i need to say here, but for the sake of clarity:
This site has a perception of being tied in with neversummer a little too close. It has led to your own forum users asking why neversummer seem to be getting so much exposure on this site.
Lets clarify this first before you jump in and also directly address the second accusation that im ignoring the hype around the brand from the past.
Im not saying that this means you and neversummer are in collusion to sell products. Once again ive been rather deliberate in avoiding the causal chain here. I understand how hype works. Its an organic process. Theres no causal chain here because i wouldnt even know where to begin. Its chicken/egg. Is the neversummer momentum on this site and the proliferation of threads talking about or referencing neversummer (including this one) caused by your close ties over the past few years, or are the close ties a product of the exposure you guys have given to neversummer?
EL has Johan over there making lots of posts, and it leads to a warm fuzzy relationship between those cats making the place C3 friendly. It doesnt mean chappy and Johan coordinated it all though to hype up c3 and dupe the rubes by making them promote capita. Its an organic process and ANY OTHER BRAND IN THE WORLD can start talking about their products and foster close ties with message boards. It just so happens though that EL is very C3 friendly, just as this site is very NS friendly.
The causal chain isnt explicated SPECIFICALLY because im in no position to depict it. So again, this isnt a line of response you want to pursue against me. Instead the point is the much less aggressive one that you do have a relationship. Your forums give a lot of exposure to neversummer. And your fellow forum users are asking why it is?
Indeed, you both concede the point and justify it as just people really liking the boards recommended them and in turn want to pass on the "stoke" by recommending those boards to others... swings/roundabouts, perhaps?
We are both saying much the same thing. This board gives a LOT of exposure to neversummer. The fostering of even closer ties to what many people already perceive as a rather close relationship does not in any way help your claims AS A SITE (not as individuals) to neutrality and impartiality. Its something youre going to have to convince people on.
finally, just on a point of order here, you realise that no ones saying youre ADVERTISING neversummer. The issue is precisely the already over exposure of the brand on this site, with the addition of new ties leading to EVEN MORE exposure for neversummer. It genuinely jeapordizes the sites credibility as a source of impartial and neutral information. NOT BECAUSE YOU are impartial, but because the information on this site skews towards Neversummer.
As i said in the very first post (and i will repeat because it shows ive remained thoroughly consistent throughout), if people want to know about how a neversummer rides, they should demo it for themselves. But the reason they might be looking for neversummer demo days is that they probably came to this site and read a lot of posts hyping neversummer. Chicken and egg, swings and roundabouts. Whatever the causal chain, it is a problem for your neaturality as a SITE that youre now so heavily tied in with the brand that you have a longstanding history with. Whatever you think, you have to at least accept this doesnt exactly help your claims to neutrality and objectivity.
Ill tell you what, i spent too much time on this last night and far too much time writing this on not enough sleep this morning so ill probably step back and leave your claims unmolested. But do try and get what im ACTUALLY saying before you try reading between the lines and attributing points i havent made due to IMPLICATIONS (that arent there). Ive said it, ive clarified it. Several times in fact. These arent short posts after all. And Ive remained thoroughly consistent throughout. Ive also stuck to the points, directly addressed your claims, and not attacked anyone in the process. I cant honestly be more genuine in my desire for open discussion on the VERY TOPIC of this thread. (though it might be a little more garbled due to only getting a few hours sleep).