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The Never Summer Review Forum

20K views 78 replies 32 participants last post by  killclimbz 
#1 · (Edited)
So I go to SIA for a few days, unplug from the internet for the most part and we have a huge shit storm? Typical.

So what the heck was this all about?

Never Summer is trying to do something pretty cool. Giving some forum members a chance to ride gear they haven't released yet and get some feed back from them about what is working for them and what doesn't from the layman. They have their bad ass riders of course, but your recreational rider is also a valid source. I get it.

Several members of this forum, myself included were invited to do this. I've been giving feed back on splitboards for the past few years. Never Summer has also been a huge supporter of Friends of Berthoud Pass which is a not for profit 501(c)3 that I actively volunteer for. Our most basic mission is to raise avalanche knowledge through free basic avalanche awareness classes. This lets people decide if it is something they want to get into without a huge investment. We encourage those who want to learn more to continue their avalanche education. Even though it's a volunteer organization there are a ton of expenses we incur. Never Summer has been a huge part in allowing us to continue our mission for the last few years and I personally thank them. They are a good crew.

The reality is, I have been asked to do something I was already doing. Just now with a name. Several other members had been doing this too.

So what went wrong? I think our presentation fell short. I've been at SIA and had not really been watching the site. I am not a heads down generation person. If I am doing something I generally unplug from the internet. It gets me into life and allows me to keep my sanity when dealing with the forum world. Regardless, the Never Summer forum on our main forum list was probably not the best spot for it. It did portray a large bias that I can understand people taking offense to it. I wanted it contained within the review or snowboard section, but due to my absence, I had never voiced an opinion on how this should have been launched. Even then maybe this would have still blown up in our face. That is the risk with the internet.

This forum is very much pro Neversummer, I won't deny it. Other brands are represented here too, for whatever reason NS is at or near the top. Go to EL and C3 is well represented there. It's just how it has evolved.

None of this was meant to be a secret society. The behind the scenes stuff was trying to get our ducks in a row and our hand got forced. Which lead to mistakes instead of a better planned announcement.

For now the Never Summer forum/sub forum is gone. Maybe it just wasn't going to work. Reviews, if the Team Members choose, will be put in the review forum. At some point I may put up a company review forum, with sub forums built in for various companies. Burton, Arbor, Rome, Never Summer, etc.

Any company that would like to get member input on their products is welcome to approach us. If you'd like to use a group, admins, mods, active members, whoever, that would be awesome. I am not the guy you want to approach if you want feedback on your new freestyle binding or twin tip board. I won't be upset if I am not chosen.

This experiment is not done, but we'll do it differently. We're trying something a little new, the message was heard to tone it down. What was originally envisioned just didn't work. I apologize for the presentation.

If you have a problem with it, by all means let me know. Just one rule: Don't be a jerk about it.

Thanks gang,

-Gary
 
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#2 ·
I think the reviews by the team members should definitely be posted on this forum. If it means just individual threads in the board review section then so be it. But they should absolutely be put up to enable knowledge and info sharing back to the community. For those who perceive bias, easy solution - don't read the reviews.
 
#4 ·
I don't know how much space is available for sub forums, but I think it would be nice to see a page for each company, even the little guys. I think it would make for a solid, functional review system, that is not based on the "search" function. Especially if you had a set of guidelines for what to include in each review. Nothing worse than trying to get a review and finding it incomplete.

If a particular company sub-forum does not get filled out... well that is simply because no one felt like taking the time. This could even push more companies to support the forum and it's members. If a rep from a company checks out the site and notices a lack of response in it's review section... they might think of tossing out a couple samples for some honest feedback.
 
#5 ·
I get why this totally imploded from the beginning, people have strong ties to the board they love and want to see it rep’ed also. I agree that you can have sub forums for all the companies and if a new board company comes it is not to hard to make a new one. In the end you can’t make everyone happy and someone is always going to feel butt hurt and that is just life. What really kills me about the internet is people get all “internet angry” at one post and just fly off the handle at people. Most people in a real face to face conversation don’t act like this minus BA who I am convinced does act the same here as in real life. I hope this move by Never Summer is also picked up by some other companies and others get to partake in the demo of pre released merchandise.
 
#8 ·
Oh but haven't you heard? You can't get honest feedback by giving out a board. The only way you can get honest feedback is if a blogger gets paid commission by companies for reviews. This can't be done for free of course because that might undermine some blogger's livelihood.

Crazy talk.....:D
So no Proto HD review on the forum anymore? That sucks. I was looking forward to it.
 
#9 ·
I was approached. I denied. I also wasn't told I'd be a part of this "team". If I had known that's what I was being approached for the denial wouldn't have been because of company conflict, but because this isn't a good idea. Giving product for reviews is a sponsored review. No way around that. The idea of splitting the board review section up so that it isn't overwhelmed by one brand is a great idea, just like it was with the 2014 preview thread. That's all I'll say for now, bitch at me if you want, you wont get a response.
 
#11 ·
I'm not going to bitch, I just have an honest question because I'm not in the industry and I want to understand how this works.

Outside of test fests and the like, how are reviewers getting hold of the product if samples aren't sent to test? Not every brand requires people to send the board back, do they?

Again, not bitching. I'm honestly uninformed about it.
 
#12 · (Edited)
NS should take the boards back afterwards. There. Conflict of interest gone

Donate them to needy kids

:laugh:
Is that the industry standard?

The main issue I see with this argument is that it insinuates that the reviewers couldn't be trusted and I don't think that is a fair assumption to make about people we "know" and should be able to trust. Especially before they were given a chance to prove otherwise.
 
#20 ·
I don't think we are getting anywhere with these posts and may as well just lock this one down too.

1. I really like Snowwolf's reviews and have even PM'd him in the past for advice which he has graciously given me. I appreciate that.
2. I hope that we continue to see reviews on the forum, as that is one of the most interesting aspects. There is no doubt NS has a good product.
3. The bottom line is that the "team" loves their free boards and who wouldn't?
4. I think my personal view on a product could be tainted if I was being given $700 in product for free, and I consider myself a pretty ethical guy. If NS wants the biggest fanboy in the world, just send me a pm and let me know when my first board will arrive. I can just see the smile on my face bombing down the run on a free board.
5. NeverSummer is putting review links on their site which get directed to this forum. So there is some kind of businesslike relationship going on, and when it comes to business, money talks (free boards/free advertising) and bullshit walks.
6. I can tell you that my opinion on the "Cobra" for instance was heavily influenced, if not solely influenced, by Snowwolfs recommendation. I don't have the luxury of test riding a board, so was ready to buy it solely based on his review. I have to admit that I look at it in a different light now that I know free product is involved, even though I am confident Snowwolf is a stand up guy and has everybody's best interest in mind.

7. So there is no right or wrong. The team gets boards and are stoked. The rest of us get a review which may or may not be influenced by graft.
8. There is a reason why almost every company these days does not allow graft: it causes headaches like this.
9. I really like this forum and hope the bickering ends soon.
 
#21 ·
I don't think we are getting anywhere with these posts and may as well just lock this one down too.

1. I really like Snowwolf's reviews and have even PM'd him in the past for advice which he has graciously given me. I appreciate that.
2. I hope that we continue to see reviews on the forum, as that is one of the most interesting aspects. There is no doubt NS has a good product.
3. The bottom line is that the "team" loves their free boards and who wouldn't?
4. I think my personal view on a product could be tainted if I was being given $700 in product for free, and I consider myself a pretty ethical guy. If NS wants the biggest fanboy in the world, just send me a pm and let me know when my first board will arrive. I can just see the smile on my face bombing down the run on a free board.
5. NeverSummer is putting review links on their site which get directed to this forum. So there is some kind of businesslike relationship going on, and when it comes to business, money talks (free boards/free advertising) and bullshit walks.
6. I can tell you that my opinion on the "Cobra" for instance was heavily influenced, if not solely influenced, by Snowwolfs recommendation. I don't have the luxury of test riding a board, so was ready to buy it solely based on his review. I have to admit that I look at it in a different light now that I know free product is involved, even though I am confident Snowwolf is a stand up guy and has everybody's best interest in mind.

7. So there is no right or wrong. The team gets boards and are stoked. The rest of us get a review which may or may not be influenced by graft.
8. There is a reason why almost every company these days does not allow graft: it causes headaches like this.
9. I really like this forum and hope the bickering ends soon.
:eusa_clap:

Yeah, right on. Go shred guys. I would if I could.
 
#26 ·
Wow, this idea blew up quicker than I thought it would...

Full disclosure: I currently have 2 NS boards (Proto and Cobra). Also had a Heritage and wife had an infinity. Awesome Boards and great company. With that said...

This idea was doomed from the start. It SEEMED (true or not) NS tried to grab every high count poster on the forum and give them a board to test, effectively controlling the forum. Sounds like a good idea on paper, but if I was a random person looking for a board and saw the NS "team" dominating the forum I would immediately discredit anything they wrote, regardless if the reviews were honest or not. I think they were already effectively controlling the forum just using Snowolf for reviews, but they went for the kill and it backfired.

What makes regular reviewers more creditable is that they receive free equipment from many different vendors all the time, by default this make them less likely to give a biased review.

On a side note, I'm not on the NS team, but I LOVE my Cobra (thanks Snowolf for the review), I feel like I can do anything on that board. The proto has already been proven to be a beast and totally lives up to the hype.
 
#28 ·
Im actually a big fan of reviews. I know the wider opinion is that reviews are next to useless due to the lack of serious information about the dude riding it vis a vis the person reading the review and trying to map their own styles, history and bias onto it. What better way to try and overcome the bias than having a tonne of people demoing the board and offering their own unique take on it? Youll get a multiplicity of perspectives and youll counter each persons intrinsic bias (not from being hooked up, but from the years of preferences and what theyre looking for in a board).

I think this was just brought in a little too suddenly (via the leak) and a little too exclusively focusing on one brand. And one brand in particular that gains a lot of traction here. So it was always going to be extremely controversial.

I think it just needs a little more care and a bit more rounding in the brands or boards chosen. Ive mentioned this elsewhere, but the idea in principal is sound, its just that the first step should be to not simply ASSUME that the team and the process is legit, but to SHOW how it works and leave it to the people reading those reviews to start to work out how it functions in practice.

Step 1: Legitimise the idea and show its value.

After that you can start building up the portfolio with specific brand relationships. But first, alas, the sceptics need convincing. And being sceptical isnt a bad thing, sceptics arent haters. They can be brought around if it shows itself to work.

Good luck with teh relaunch. Sincerely.
 
#31 ·
Somehow this needs to be re-evaluated, restructured, or whatever the hell word that is appropriate. The little guy is gonna lose big time on this. In saying "little guy", I mean, some of us who share a passion for this sport, unfortunately, don't live particularly close to a hill nor do we have access to numerous board shops. This information was and still is very valuable to us. Somehow, some way this needs to be fixed ASAP.
 
#35 ·
I would think there would be a point too where good reviewers are reviewing so many products that the bias is taken out. Why be biased towards one particular brand if you've got 3+ other brands to review? I'm sure there are talented reviewers out there who give shit away because they literally have no need for that many products. :dunno:

I think it's a good idea and I'm looking forward to the reviews. The only thing I would have liked to have seen (and maybe I just missed it so my apologies if that's the case) is a dedicated female rider who can give honest feedback on the infinity, onyx, and raven. I'm looking for a board for the wife and was going to use those reviews when buying.
 
#44 ·
This is definitely an interesting debate, and one I often struggle with on my site. I usually opt to purchase gear I review, but if I can land reviews through demo's that's definitely a preference. With the NS boards, I generally hit up the factory to grab a board to review if any are available. I'll spend a week or two on the board, and bring it back once I'm done. If I like a given board I purchase one for that season. During a review I carry a notepad ironically, and when I find something worth noting, I'll stop riding, make a note and continue with my run, or perhaps wait until the end of the run to make notes. Regardless, every reviewer is going to be different, and hopefully most of them can remain objective during reviews.

Just my two cents..

On a completely different note, I'm looking forward to seeing the reviews!
 
#48 ·
You're missing my point again. And then you'll miss mine... and then we'll just do the tango... then you'll buy me dinner... finally, I still won't give you the booty.

Seriously though, I was emphasizing that snowboard reviewers aren't paid. So it's unreasonable to expect them not to accept free gear for reviews (not saying you expect it, general statement here).

I bring up the purchaser bias because it very well could be a bigger bias than a hooked up reviewer.

So we fall into a hole that goes absolutely nowhere.

In the end, we should all just fucking chill out. God I can't wait to ride this week.
 
#49 ·
And you are absolutely correct, that most snowboard reviewers are not comparable to professional, paid reviewers like Consumer Report.
However, most snowboard reviewers are paid, be it with free gear, advertising on their sites/blogs, or otherwise.
They are just not paid by the consumers - and that is where the conflict of interest comes in.

[Side note: I have always thought that your Agnarchy project was as close to unbiased as it got for snowboard reviews - and I have stated that several times on this forum in the past.]

And I have no idea whether the purchaser bias is bigger or the bias that comes from being paid by the manufacturer - as I said, I do not trust either type of reviewer fully...
 
#51 ·
I just want to touch on the issue of free gear and reviews as it totally needs to be put into perspective.

Anyone can get free gear in snowboarding if they know who/how to talk to people. It's really not hard to do. I've seen the worst of the worst get full head to toe hook ups just because they annoyed the right people. This is why there are an abundance of crappy sites pushing to be the "next big thing in snowboard reviews", they want free stuff. Plus lets face the facts snowboarding isn't cheap.

Now here's my personal belief on free gear and I've said this numerous times as well. If you're going to be getting hooked up you need to pay it forward never pay it back. By that I mean hook up the less fortunate, donate it, make sure it ends up in the hands of someone that will use it and values getting it. Use your judgement to make the best decision you can to keep the forward paying cycle going. Don't look back only look forward. I'm not going to cite specific examples because that's not my nature but those in the know can vouch for what I've personally done with gear, those out of the know will just assume I build forts out of it in my living room and then write articles.

When you're sitting at the top looking down, which is where I'm at, you can see what does and doesn't work. Over the last 3 years where I've made it a point companies were better off to send gear, the outlines they received specifically stated that all gear would be returned if they provided a return shipping label or scheduled a pick up. It works and others should follow suit, sadly most don't. This changes the dynamic in my opinion.

With advertising it's an even harder topic to talk about without someone just becoming accusatory and saying you're bought off. There's a reason I have lawyers work on my contracts and put the proper legalese in there to protect myself as well as them in terms of editorial content. It's just a safety to fall back on in case they get upset and pull funding over saying board x from brand y rode like a turd. Now even with that in place I have had brands try to get me to endorse products for free gear or the thought of advertisements, I stick to the rule if they're willing to buy you off that means they don't exactly believe in their product.

I do fully believe the system is flawed in snowboarding with reviews. I also personally hate doing them but until I see a system created that benefits the end user fully I'll continue to try and refine and perfect this flawed system and lead by example. The 2014 reviews I'm about to bust into are going to be a game changer for the online review world. Finding a way to be informative, innovative, and unbiased is tricky but thanks to a lot of help from two dedicated videographers and a lot of research I think this broken system will start to be slowly repaired. Top Gear UK not that horrible U.S. version has been a huge influence for me.
 
#54 ·
Hey BA,

I completely understand where you are coming from. But how is it fair to me if I'm reviewing a product, generating tons of sales, and not getting compensated a dime?

I won't lie. Although I love helping riders get on the right gear, I am not going to do it for completely free in terms of reviewing. Even at my job, the reviews aren't completely free. The only free review I do is on aGNARchy and that's because my buddy runs it.

With that said, I'm not saying every board I am sent to review should be mine to keep. But that's not to say I'm not happy to accept gear.

I'm not a full time reviewer with a huge site to run so you and I are very different. I respect what you do and I personally know about the things you've done for riders. So in your shoes, what you're saying makes all the sense in the world.

I dunno bro, this is getting to be too heavy.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App
 
#59 ·
Are you writing reviews for your day job? Does your job description entail that you get paid to write those reviews? Does the company pay for you to get to and from on hill demos, lodging, lift tickets, etc. etc. If that's the case yeah I think you're being compensated. Lets be honest your job kind of facilitates you with a paycheck so keeping them happy is probably a must.

With what I do reviews are only there to bring in people and hope they stay around for the original content. I've said it before and I'll say it again I hate doing product reviews the industry needs to be doing more demos, but that won't change any time soon. I would much rather devote time to making things like Parks and Wreck or Life of the Snow Carny. I've had long talks with this with companies about why I do reviews and the fact that it's not fun. The toll a season of doing this takes on your body is huge when you start pushing the envelope. Now granted you do reviews, get some rider interviews, talk tech, post an edit or two, and maybe if you're lucky you get them to advertise (at least in my situation). That's when you have to have properly worded contracts that stipulate if they are going to submit product for reviews they are hands off for the company to control. They have to take their licks. Snowboard mag ran into this when they sent out a media kit saying that for 6 grand you could buy a platinum pick, they never recovered from this. But that's another story.




Can anyone confirm that bloggers aren't getting paid by the companies they review for?
Are you talking people that specifically only write reviews for companies that purposely use them as online marketing tools like what was supposed to be set up with the NSDT or are you just talking people that do reviews in general? Kind of an open statement with a few different answers.

I can show you the level of debt I'm in from not making money trying to turn my site into a business if that helps answer your question.

Once again spending too much time on this I should be out the door riding right now.
 
#57 ·
I have given boards away as well. Last week, I brought up a test board from LibTech that was given to me and gave it to my student in a multiweek program that an alternative high school that deals with drug addiction conducts at Meadows.The kid has gone a full year drug free and is learning to snowboard. It was our third week together and he is doing great and is so stoked about riding but has very little money. His only obstacle in his riding progression is fear. I made him a deal. If he would go up to the top of Cascade with me and give it his all, the board was his. That little fucker was linking turns like a champ on the blue run and he did it from the highest lift at Meadows. Another instructor friend had and old beat to shit pair of Cartells in his locker and he donated them. That kid was a happy mother fucker leaving with his very own snowboard that day. This week we will ride together again and I promised him his first park lesson.
Good shit. I always enjoy reading stuff like this.
 
#65 ·
Another thing to consider about objectivity:

Leo has a group of riders that all jump on a review board and give him feed back. They have no stake and no motivation to lie about how the board felt.

Now here is my case and 3 of the riders I hand picked.

We are all instructors working with a group of other instructors. I have always swapped boards with my coworkers and gotten their feedback. This year, I am doing it more formally. I am having them ride the board and fill out a one page "quick review" sheet for me. These mini reviews will go into my overall review. On Friday, the night resort manager took out the 2014 Raptor for a couple of runs and gave me his feedback. I plan on getting at least a couple of other people I work with on the board and reviewing it. They have zero motivation to be bias!
Id be happy to help compare this to my 2012 Raptor! Now....to get up there....thats a different story! Ill be tuned in. Im actually really looking forward to seeing this NSDT come to fruition. Especially your reviews, Wolf. Hell it was your words that convinced me to look at the Raptor in the first place!
 
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