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Scorpioned while flat basing and now I can't anymore

32K views 152 replies 35 participants last post by  jtg 
#1 ·
So after a few times out this year I was flat basing on terrain that wasn't steep with no issue, especially cat tracks. Then once out of nowhere, I scorpioned HARD, not even going that fast. The problem is I don't know what I was doing wrong. So now I am very shy of flatbasing, even slowly on flat terrain.

I have a C2 BTX (aka RC on Neversummer) board.

Is there some trick to doing that while guaranteeing you won't catch an edge? I was way past the point of catching edges in normal riding so it was a little surprising. Yet I see other people flat base bombing steep black sections. And obviously you need to be able to do this at decent speed for most jumps. Usually when I try, I start feeling my back-end get a little squirrely and feel like I narrowly missed another scorpion. What am I missing? Keep all your weight on the front foot?
 
#65 · (Edited)
There are 4 board performance concepts we use as riders. They are twist, tilt, pivot and pressure. Just like riding a box, we use no edging movements to flat base so that takes away twist and tilt. Without those two, we cannot change our direction of travel (turn)
I disagree with you on that (depending on the snow conditions). As long as the board sinks in slightly (snow reasonably soft), twist works fine for small amounts of steering (without edge engagement).
 
#66 · (Edited)
I am not going to play games with you here. Now you seem to be nit picking to argue a point. My answer to your question was straight forward. Flat base as a technique with a purpose such as making it across a flat area or up a hill. Until you have improved as a competent rider, try to avoid doing it for long stretches. The fact that you ate shit is a result of you not having the technique mastered and I was trying to help you. Take the advice and progress into being able to do it right and know when you can or need to or don't and keep eating shit; your call.
No, sorry, genuinely confused. You basically said not to do it, then you said it has its place for those situations, then I said I intended to use it for those situations, then you said not to do it again. Now you say I don't have the technique, and that is why I ate shit, which I acknowledge, and is the reason I'm asking.

SO WHAT IS THE DAMN TECHNIQUE TO DO IT IN APPROPRIATE SITUATIONS WITHOUT EATING SHIT? :yahoo:

All of the debate in this thread is about whether or not you should, when you should, whether its even possible, as well as a bunch of insults. No one except wrathfuldiety and ETM have even tried to explain the technique. Edit: And now, you, have finally tried explaining the technique in your last post. Thanks. That's all I was asking. And behi added some tips too.

To recap:

-Keep shoulders aligned (boarder cross guys seem to break this rule the whole time with open shoulders, so kinda confused, but ok)
-Easier to do in softer snow than harder snow
-Easier to do at higher speeds than slow on a cat track/flat
-Keep ankles loose
-Auto-correcting micro-adjustments via pressure changes come naturally with practice
-Keep weight forward (both intuitive and confusing, because you don't catch edges if way in the back seat, like tail pressing/buttering)
-Use counter-rotation with any available body part if the back wants to swing out and catch
-True flatbasing is a unicorn that only ETM and timmytard have seen
-ETM and timmytard are sinners
 
#73 ·
SO WHAT IS THE DAMN TECHNIQUE TO DO IT IN APPROPRIATE SITUATIONS WITHOUT EATING SHIT? :yahoo:

All of the debate in this thread is about whether or not you should, when you should, whether its even possible, as well as a bunch of insults. No one except wrathfuldiety and ETM have even tried to explain the technique. Edit: And now, you, have finally tried explaining the technique in your last post. Thanks. That's all I was asking. And behi added some tips too.

To recap:

-Keep shoulders aligned (boarder cross guys seem to break this rule the whole time with open shoulders, so kinda confused, but ok)
-Easier to do in softer snow than harder snow
-Easier to do at higher speeds than slow on a cat track/flat
-Keep ankles loose
-Auto-correcting micro-adjustments via pressure changes come naturally with practice
-Keep weight forward (both intuitive and confusing, because you don't catch edges if way in the back seat, like tail pressing/buttering)
-Use counter-rotation with any available body part if the back wants to swing out and catch
-True flatbasing is a unicorn that only ETM and timmytard have seen
-ETM and timmytard are sinners
to get started, do it on gentle slopes and flat track areas then as you get more comfortable/confident with speed and slope. Learning to ride flat is most useful on long flat tracks and when you need to maintain speed to get up hill (terrain trap)....and to accelerate quickly or bomb.

its easy...just 3 things to get started
1...keep weight on the nose
2...make sure your shoulders, hips and arms/hands are closed/parallel (all body parts inside the cereal box)
3...netural stacked (ankles/hips/shoulders) stance with relaxed knees and loose ankles
Its learning to just trust the board and remained relaxed enough to absorb the little bumbs, ruts and stuff...if you are stiff you will get tossed around....you want to absorb.

Good practice is to ride 1 footy as long as possible off a chair or on the bunny hill. If you put a 5 lb sand bag in the front binding and let it go....the board will generally flow down the fall line and will not catch an edge.
 
#75 ·
1...keep weight on the nose
It only took 85 comments for JTG to get the answer on how to flat base. People seem more interested in fighting words than snowboarding advise. Somehow the topic of flat basing always gets heated.

I think people eat it hard when they stand up and relax and take the weight off their down hill leg to take a break. If any weight is off centered to the rear of the board, the tail will want to come around to either toe edge, scorpioned, or heel edge, WWF suplex.

If your weight is toward the nose of the board, it is like gravity is pulling you, if it is towards the tail, it is like gravity is pushing you. For those that don't drive, if you pull a shopping cart with one hand, the cart will go straight, if you push a shopping cart with one hand it will want to turn unless you fight it.

I've watch guys do "wheelie" on the tail of their board and not eat it, so I know that riding the tail flat is possible.

I was lost with the whole physics, inertia, gyroscopic, momentum, rigid body discussion.
 
#77 ·
It only took 85 comments for JTG to get the answer on how to flat base. People seem more interested in fighting words than snowboarding advise. Somehow the topic of flat basing always gets heated.
Splitting hairs seems like a useful exercise in this thread, since it's clear from the discussion that different people have different definitions of what 'real' flat-basing is.

Looking at the video posted earlier, demonstrating 'real' flat-basing, it looks to me like that guy is actually shifting the weight a little between toe and heel edge.
 
#67 ·
As for the physics of how it is possible, the gyroscopic effect known as rigidity in space from forward inertia is a powerfully stabilizing force and an object like a snowboard and rider in motion resists motion in other planes.
That doesn't make sense. For a gyroscopic effect you need a gyroscope - something that rotates. There is no stabilization from inertia against rotation or movement in other planes whatsoever.

If I were to speculate, I would say the extra stability at higher speed comes from less rotation per distance traveled (if there is some disturbance), so any pivoting has a better chance of auto-correcting.
 
#69 ·
There you go video demonstration. I know the guy personally and ridden with him, he can flatbase while not going on an edge. He taught me just imagine your body being an arrow and just stand still. Imagine if you just let a snowboard go down a slope (with nobody standing on it), it will not catch an edge. Now add a person on the snowboard and just get into an athletic stance bend your knees and ankle and don't make unnecessary movements with your upper or lower body.

 
#70 ·
I have mixed thoughts about this. In general I think we are splitting hairs here as the line between pressure and twist is fine and blurred. Is twist a cause or an effect? Answer is it is both. In the context we are using it, it is a result of pressure. So where does pressure end and tilt begin? Just my opinion here but when a rider applies enough pressure to start to torsionally twist the board, by definition it ceases to have a flat base ergo no longer "flat basing".

Twist can also be a cause. Increased twist leads to tilt; at least at one end of the board. In order to have twist, there is always some element of tilt otherwise, there isn't really any twist. I maintain my position that twist is not a part of flat basing rather pressure is. In soft snow, technically your edges are engaged when flat basing; both of them simultaneously since the entire board is below the surface.
Torsion/twist alone works (same amount of twist front/back) and it works without engaging the sidecut. Unfortunately, I don't have a board without sidecut.

In the name of snowboarding science, I created a tiny 'board' with a twist (pun intended) from a rectangular strip of tinplate. Rice had to do as running surface; the board was dragged by putting a needle in a hole slightly forward of the center. The 'board' does indeed want to turn according to the twist - no sidecut needed. Pressure should be the same, front and back are twisted the same amount. (I verified that no off-center hole is the cause by twisting the 'board' the other way - it turns in the other direction.)
:D
 
#72 ·
I get that but if you twist, the base is no long flat. The edge does not have to be engaged and is irrelevant. The base is not flat. Go ahead and twist the base on a box. Even though you never come close to actually tilting onto the edge, you will se daylight under some portion of a twisted base. My point remains valid that if you apply enough pressure to twist the base it is no longer truly flat ergo not truly flat basing. To truly flat base a board, use pivot and pressure not twist.
Ok. In my book it's close enough to flat and the twisting isn't used all the time, it's only used for small steering corrections. If the snow is soft, you won't see daylight. A very small amount of twist is enough.

If the snow is hard, I think what matters is that you are engaging the edge/sidecut.
 
#74 ·
My favorite part of this thread is that it took 9 pages to get about 3 decent posts for the op.

Summary:

- when flat basing don't be an asshat and run into people
- flat basing takes practice, and not always great to use it everywhere
- monkey's will kill their alpha leader if he is a bitch (read it in the news the other day)
- learn to use a bit edge when flat basing, even if you eventually don't always use this technique
- after 50-50s on a box, try some basic butters it will improve you awareness of the board
- we aren't skiers worrying about turns, but using an edge can be faster then trying to flat base to the bottom .. Sometimes .. Maybe most times .. Myth bust it
- 100% real east coast ice is not edge-able(it happens from time to time) it is like a 600m box, pick your line, avoid it if you can/want .. Or flat base it for a sweet ride.
- having an edge is not the only means of control .. Spinning in the air with no edge can still be controlled .. It is in the setup, similar with flat basing

Good thread :eusa_clap:
 
#78 ·
Looking at the video posted earlier, demonstrating 'real' flat-basing, it looks to me like that guy is actually shifting the weight a little between toe and heel edge.[/QUOTE]

Probably so that he can stay flat based:cheeky4:


TT
 
#81 · (Edited)
Yeah, I NEVER give anyone any advice in here.....:rolleyes:

Might want to read through the threads in here before making a comment buddy. People did answer his question, he just didnt like the answers they gave as you appearanly dont either. You might also note, that when Wrathfuldiety and others actually gave him answers to improve, he ignored them and started arguing about boardercross.
wtf?

No. Wrathfuldeity answered and I read it. I didn't ignore him, and acknowledged that he answered it in a recent comment. The thread took off with dumb comments about "flat basing isn't snowboarding" and I argued THOSE comments a little in the beginning, using boarder cross as one example.

When you read that, people are not overly motivated to answer his question. Does not mean that people didnt give him their honest answers. I actually answered the guy`s question in another thread so I addressed the issue that was raised about it A: being possible and B: being faster.
I didn't ask it in another thread. You got confused and then gave me shit for ignoring an answer you never gave because you mixed up your threads. And your comment about using a box didn't come until AFTER all that. And I haven't even said anything since that part.

You dont seem to understand that there is difference between fighting and discussing. Behi and I were discussing, not fighting, technique from an instructor perspective. This is also a subforum for instructors and coaches to discuss theory and coaching techniques after all. Sorry if a little high school level physics is too confusing to you. As instructors, I realize we need to dumb it down for the general public but we also use this subforum to discuss topics at an instructor level. But since I dont ever help anyone here, I can go now and stop wasting my time trying to help folks improve their riding ....:dunno:
I don't think anyone is saying you never help anyone. You've been very helpful. In general though this thread was a shit show, and there was plenty of fighting. Not from you. Except this comment where you call me out, I don't know what that is for really.

I did briefly question one comment by you saying boarder cross has no flat basing and only carving, which I did in a respectful way, and acknowledged your expertise. Which was kinda besides the point anyway, I was just finding legitimate examples because some posters, and even you at one time, said it should never be done (but you since cleared that up).

And regarding dumbing things down...I don't know who you think is on the other end of these keyboards, but you might be surprised at our ability to digest 6th grade physics, among other things ;)

Spring comes along and ruins our snow and makes everyone PMS I guess.:thumbsup:
 
#82 · (Edited)
Yeah, I NEVER give anyone any advice in here.....:rolleyes:

Might want to read through the threads in here before making a comment buddy. People did answer his question, he just didnt like the answers they gave as you appearanly dont either. You might also note, that when Wrathfuldiety and others actually gave him answers to improve, he ignored them and started arguing about boardercross. When you read that, people are not overly motivated to answer his question. Does not mean that people didnt give him their honest answers. I actually answered the guy`s question in another thread so I addressed the issue that was raised about it A: being possible and B: being faster. We have 3 of these flat basing threads going at the moment and I already stated how to maintain a flat base using jibbing a box as an example. You dont seem to understand that there is difference between fighting and discussing. Behi and I were discussing, not fighting, technique from an instructor perspective. This is also a subforum for instructors and coaches to discuss theory and coaching techniques after all. Sorry if a little high school level physics is too confusing to you. As instructors, I realize we need to dumb it down for the general public but we also use this subforum to discuss topics at an instructor level. But since I dont ever help anyone here, I can go now and stop wasting my time trying to help folks improve their riding ....:dunno:
I'm not trying to bust your balls .. I said about 3 decent posts ... it was an exaggeration. Not saying there isn't good advice here. I was just jokin around

P.S. I agreed with your advice more or less
 

Attachments

#91 ·
I suggest we develop a forum-approved definition of flatbasing to aid with these discussions. My suggestions:

flatbasing verb

a. when a board is flat <I was seriously flatbasing my ass off and reached 50mph>
b. when a board is flat but also on edge, slightly <I was flatbasing my ass off and reached 50mph, dude that's not flatbasing, you were on your edge>
 
#92 ·
[...] noticed no difference between flat based, slight edge pressure or carving. In each case, the glide was the same as far as I could measure.
My testing suggests (hiking GPS that gives highly accurate speed data), that edge pressure generally doesn't make a difference (as long as the board is still going straight). In cold, fresh, non-icy stuff and wet snow it's even helpful to use a significant amount of pressure, so that only part of the running surface makes full contact.

When carving, even if you have the same glide/speed, you are not going straight and have to cover a longer distance. So if the goal is to make a flat/uphill section, it's counter-productive.
 
#93 ·
So to revisit this. While riding today I was thinking about this whole argument and what I actually do and how much difference it makes. What I noticed is that even though my base is flat visually, I am definitely pressuring one edge or the other at all times. Granted, it is very light pressure but it is there. I deliberately went totally flat like I would on a box and even though I was stacked and aligned, the board definitely picked up wobble from the uneven snow on the long flat cat track that is the run out for Heather Canyon at Mt. Hood Meadows. Every little bump, dip and rut affected the board`s trajectory in some fashion. I was able to always make tiny corrections to keep it going flat and straight but it was a total concentration kind of task.

When riding as I normally do with just a bit of edge pressure (not tilt) The board handled so much better and the ride was just easier. So, how did this affect board performance? Well, the snow was firm hardpack that was just softening up from the afternoon sun and was not noticeably sticky. My glide up a short uphill stretch was no different whether I was holding a slight bit of stabilizing edge presser or letting it go totally flat. Maintaining a carve with the edge actually lifted, did mean that I did not coast to the top however.

Later, I tried this in the refrozen hardpack and noticed no difference between flat based, slight edge pressure or carving. In each case, the glide was the same as far as I could measure. Now of course I wax and it does make a difference in our snow.

So, for me, I personally in my riding, am going to continue to ride "flat based: while deliberately hold just a tad of edge pressure. Any loss of glide performance is a small price to pay for the extra margin of control I feel. Because I firmly believe this method is safer than trying to maintain a true 100% flat base, I am going to recommend using light edge pressure; especially with beginners and intermediates. Others can do it any way they like and if they are comfortable being truly flat based, that`s their call. I am going with flat but pressured.
this is basically me entire argument. there is really no reason to sacrifice the control you have for an almost immeasurable amount of additional glide or speed..and generally, you need to put pressure one way or the other to correct yourself if you are truly flat regardless.
 
#94 ·
Just for the he'll of it I was paying attention this morning on a hard icy groomed run. While flat based I almost always kept my front foot equal and but slight pressure on my rear foots toe or heel to keep from chattering too much.... No steering came from my rear foot pressure nor edge hold. It was simply keeping pressure across my board.

Yesterday on the mid day spring slush it was equal pressure on both feet going down straight runs then full edge engage when turning...
 
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