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Flow Binding 2013 Q & A

170K views 573 replies 110 participants last post by  dexter 
#1 ·
Hi,

2013 will be our 18th year selling Flow, so this puts a big smile on my face. Minds will be blown this year. The new line is so full of tech and options that I thought a Q & A might be in order. This year almost everything in the binding line has been reworked from the ground up. The Flow team has been torture testing variation after variation of these new designs for two years and has finally put their stamp of approval on the final product. Fire away if you have any Q's. We will be sure to get you quick answers.









 
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#386 ·
NX2 summary

For any late comers to this thread, allow me to distill some of the key points regarding NX2s from the previous 39 pages (which I've just read...you're welcome ;) ) :

Disclaimers:
  • I don't own a set of NX2's (yet).
  • As always, there'll be disagreement on each of the points below. Some people have had no problems at all, and love their NX2s; others have had what I'd call "deal-breaker" issues. What I've tried to show below is (in my opinion) the consensus view...ie. what the majority of commenters seem to be saying.
  • If in doubt, please ask someone who actually knows (eg. Wiredsport). I'm just a guy trying to decide which ones to get myself...probably just like you. So don't take my word for it...

Key Points:
  1. General consensus seems to be: excellent bindings, most owners seem to be happy with the performance
  2. The difference between the four NX2 models, in terms of flex/stiffness, is minimal (i.e. nuanced, not radically different), and only differs in the upper 1/3 of the highback
  3. On the hybrid strap/toe cap models (GT / SE), there have been some concerns over the design of the toe cap. People complaining that the front strap falls down when not strapped in; required a little manual repositioning after strapping in. Can potentially be mitigated by swapping the left/right front straps (?).
  4. Weight is not an issue (Flows aren't significantly heavier than other conventional bindings). Myth: busted.
  5. If you have big feet (as in, really big...15+); you might have issues fitting into these bindings.
  6. The LSR ratchets sometimes don't actually 'lock' to prevent the strap from tightening if bumped. This may be due to a faulty set of ratchets/ladders (which Flow may replace under warranty), or simply a faulty design (ladder plastic not being thick enough for the ratchet to really bite into)
  7. You cannot (officially) swap the hybrid strap/toe cap for a traditional Flow powerstrap (i.e. Flow don't sell a conversion kit). That said, at least one person has managed to Frankenstein their set.

I think that's most of the key issues covered. As I said, this is all based on the vibe I got from reading this thread from start to finish. Your mileage may vary.

Now for my comments/questions....

I'm from the southern hemisphere, so the new 2014 models shown at SIA won't be ready in time for our season (Jun-Sep); hence I'm looking at picking up a set of 2013's (hopefully for a good price, as I'll be buying at the end of the northern hemisphere winter, ideally an end of season clearance sale).

I've loved the traditional Flow strap design for years. In fact, for me the NX2s will replace a trusty pair of 10 year old Flow Pro-C FRs...



(yeah, it's been a while...)

Regardless, I was prepared to take a chance on the new hybrid strap models (GT / SE), as I liked the idea of the toe cap preventing my boot from going too far forward when strapping in, plus having the option to strap in like a conventional 2-strap binding when the situation demands (eg. balancing on the heel edge on a steep hill, where it's difficult to drop the highbacks down fully).

However, given the various strap-related comments (toe cap issues, LSR locking issues, ladder thickness etc.); I'm now not so sure...and perhaps I might just stick with the more familiar ATs (I think the RS might be a little too stiff).

Does anyone know what differences were made (if any) to the straps in the 2014 models? (Looking at the pics, I can't see much of a difference)

If the straps are largely unchanged from the 2013 models, then that would suggest that Flow were happy with their original strap design; confident to reuse that design for another year.

On the other hand, if the straps have changed significantly in 2014; then that might confirm what the commenters have been saying; in which case that would be a clear signal to stick with the tradition strap for the 2013s.
 
#387 ·
Scott

In the Flow 2014 thread found Here one of the videos states that they did change the angle on the tow strap

You cannot (officially) swap the hybrid strap/toe cap for a traditional Flow powerstrap (i.e. Flow don't sell a conversion kit). That said, at least one person has managed to Frankenstein their set.
Just wait for the revised Frankenstein later this month:D
 
#388 ·
Hi Scott,

You have hit a lot of the points.

The 2013 NX2 models were very well received...and wait until you feel the weight savings on the 2014's. It will blow your mind how light these active rear entry bindings have become. Also, the Fuse models will offer NASTY in a whole new flex category (Essentialy the M9 and M11 or getting upgraded to NASTY both with and without the toe cap).

As mentioned above, there will be an for 2014 to the toecap angle on the SE 'sthat wil raise the strap slightly to immediately accommmodate a wider range of boots with no manual adjustment.

STOKED!
 
#389 ·
First of all, thanks so much for taking the time to answer our questions.

I recently purchased a set of Flow M9 bindings. I loosened the highback adjustment screws to move it back a little bit. However, after re-tightening the screws, they now all feel loose. I can actually slide the adjustment bracket back and forth even though the screws are tightened. Am I missing something simple here, or is it designed to tighten as you strap your boot in?
 

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#395 · (Edited)
I have the same problem with my m9 binding. I can't show you in a picture what the problem is. The last pic of the m9 the dude is pointing out the location. The screw that holds the hiback and the power strap doesn't stay in place no matter how tight it is. The teeth that hold are looked good so I must be the piece that connects the hiback and the power strap the failure.
I'm going to take a pic of the piece that I think it has the problem.
 

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#399 ·
Going for my third set of flows, I've always had Size L NXT-ATs with my Salomon Malamute Size 9 boots. In getting this next binding to try out the active strap with the NX2s, I'm want to go as stiff as possible so the RS. Having a hard time at this point in the season finding anything but XL for sale.

Am I going to be able to setup an XL for my Size 9 boot?
 
#406 ·
I just picked up a set of 2013 NX2-GTs and am quite frustrated. I was excited about these but after a day of riding have noticed several problems.

I'm using the Mediums in a Size 7.5/Mondo 25.5 boot.

1. The toe cap defeats the purpose of quick entry, at least with the current design of the toe cap on my boot (Salomon F4.0). I basically got tangled up going in/out of them every time. The toe strap, which just falls down, usually tries to roll under the boot. I see others have posted about this and suggested swapping and turning it upside down. Not ideal but I might give that a try.

2. The lock on the ratchets doesn't do anything. I see others have posted about this and it sounds like some units are worse than others?

3. Footbed on a medium seems way too short for a 7.5 boot. I can feel the corner of it digging into my foot across the ball during toeside turns. I guess this was my fault for not bringing my boot and trying them in the store. I went with the sizing chart and the word of the sales guy who said medium is the appropriate size. I also have an older pair of size 8 (K2 T1) and noticed that I can't even get the toe strap around them even on the last tooth.

4. This one is minor, but I seem to have a defect on one of my toe straps. The rubber part has a protrusion in the middle, like it's been stretched by something as wide as a pen. It looks like it is probably just cosmetic, but I expect better QC out of a $370 binding.

I might see if I can return them and get a large. But I think the ratchet lock issue is still going to be a problem. My shop doesn't take returns once it has been used, so it's probably going to take a bit of fighting.
 
#407 ·
So I exchanged mine for a large and had a much better experience. Overall I really like them, but there are a few issues. With the medium, it didn't fit well and wasn't possible to center on the board. The footbed didn't have nearly enough boot coverage. On the Large version, it's too big for an ideal fit. Basically if you have a size 8 foot, you're kinda screwed, but getting the Large is at least workable.

The ratchet mechanism is not the best quality. After a few hours of use, one of the toe strap ratchets no longer clicks and catches the tooth under moderate pressure (and I'm not tightening them to obscene levels).

As others have mentioned, when locked, a little more pressure can still result in it moving.

I had some issues with heel slip, and tweaked them throughout the day. The appeal is the quick entry, but in practice, I'm finding that doing them up that way is resulting in heel slippage. Sometimes it works better than others. It's nice when you kick your foot in and lock it and it feels just right, but so far my experience has been that more often than not, you'll still have to mess with it.
 
#409 ·
That has not been an issue. The boot settles into place nicely due to the shaping of the baseplate. Even if you prefer to loosen all of the strap adjustments (there are a lot of ways that riders are using the NX2 models) there is a natural point when you will simply feel that you are "in".
 
#410 ·
Your foot will go into the exact same position every time. That is assuming your ratchets don't randomly tighten on you like me and others have had happen. Flow could easily fix this issue but they seem to be ignoring it.
 
#414 ·
Hi JTG,

Those are too large for your boot model. While 7.5 is the very smallest size that flow suggests for Large, that is at the extreme side of the range and this relies on a bigger than average size 7.5 (there is a huge range in boot dimensions between manufacturers and models).
 
#415 · (Edited)
Well, the Medium bindings were much worse for other reasons. I had 1.5+ inches of overhang on the toe side, and the heel was not even at the edge of the board. I tried to ride on them before exchanging for the large and was way unbalanced.

So it seems that although flow suggests that 7.5 overlaps, their bindings don't really have sizing overlap, but have a sizing gap.

Note that I have another boot, K2 T1 size 8, that is physically too big for the toe strap on the Medium size binding. Even on the last tooth, it's not possible to get a single click. On the Larges, I just did a similar test for heel lift and got similar results. It also had the problem with the awkward green strap being bent way out when the upper portion was on the smallest setting to try and center the pressure. It's possible to pull that out a fair bit so that it all mounts flush with the boot, but the tension when tightened is on the outside.

I wonder if the L/XL overlap (Size 10.5 and 11) has a similar problem.
 
#416 ·
Your problem is that you have one pair of normal boots and one pair of reduced footprint boots. The fact that you couldn't get your Salomons to even center in the medium bindings baffles me to no end. My only though is that you didn't know how to use the adjustments and the mounting disk to center the boot correctly. Not trying to offend but it is all I can come up with.

I would love to see pics of your K2 boots in the large bindings to see what they look like.
 
#418 · (Edited)
No offense taken, I'm pretty sure there was no other way to do it, but I'm open to the possibility that I overlooked something.

The thing is though, the centering on the board wasn't the only problem. The footbed was fully extended (which doesn't actually go out much further) and when riding on them, I had over 1.5" of overhang on the supposed "reduced footprint" boots. I could actually feel the corner of the foot bed digging in to my boot under the metatarsal area during a toe-side turn. There is no heel cup depth adjustment on these (that I can see), so it wasn't possible to put my boots back any further.




Hi JTG,

The centering issue on the Medium is sounding like a correctable issue. I know that we could troubleshoot that one. We fit the overlap sizes to your boot size every day. Was the disk adjustment all the way back for the 7.5 (hardware in the most toeside holes)?
Yes. If you haven't looked recently, I'd suggest taking a look at how much space that really buys you on the flow plates. It's less than half an inch. After doing this, my toe overhang was about 1.5", and the heel of my boot was still about a quarter inch *inside* the edge of the board. As in, not even overhanging yet.


As requested, pics of the T1 boot in the Large.

Photo Album - Imgur

Pic 1: The Salomon 7.5 on the left is not much smaller footprint-wise than the K2 8 on the right. The toe area is a bit more bulky, enough that the Medium flow binding cannot go over it even using the last tooth on the ladder and the other side of the strap extended all the way to the plastic guard edges holding it in.

Pic 2: Binding centering. This pic is using the burton channel holes, and as you can see, there is very little room to center the binding left or right. Less than half an inch. On the Large, it is currently centered pretty well and I have it all the way towards the rear. When I had the Mediums, it was actually mounted on a Lib board with traditional 4x4 mounts. In that case, the base plate is rotated from what you see in this pic, and you can slide it left or right along the 4x4 holes to center. On the medium binding on the lib board, I had it rotated and all the way to the right (rear), which brings it closer to center by about 0.5" or less. You can see based on the scratched paint in this pic that the center of the holes were used (because this is a pic of the large, which centers nicely enough using the center holes). On the Mediums, you would have seen that wear all the way to the bottom.

Pic 3: My older, size 8 K2 boots in the Large flow, similar to my previous pics. Note that the upper binding strap is all the way down (visible in next pics), in attempt to center the pressure at the instep area and uniformly around the boot. The green strap is as small as it will go, and as was the case with the Salomon boots, it just curls way up and may as well not exist.

Pic 4: This is how much heel lift occurs with centering the upper strap and flexing toe-side. Not a whole lot, and it is possible to ride like that. I could probably live with that much heel lift if there were no other issues. In fact I would guess it is comparable to other bindings, haven't really checked.

Pic 5 and 6: After lowering the highback and pulling my foot out after the initial setting, then reinserting as best as I could, much better than I could if my other foot was in and I was on snow, I re-did the same action from Pic 4. As you can see, there is more heel lift. Not nearly as bad as the Salomons, but not very good. After closing it upon reinsertion, I did observe the toe cap being more prone to sliding than my initial settings.

Pic 7: This is an attempt at "best fit" rather than even pressure. The problematic green strap fits over the middle of the foot nicely. The right side of the upper strap (not visible, but visible in the next pic) is not shoved so far down the strap that it's interfering with the cable. Although this setup looks like it fits reasonably and clean in all areas, there is far more pressure on the left side of my foot here, and plenty of soft on the right side to roll my ankle. The real issue is evident in the next pic.

Pic 8: Note that the strap is further out as mentioned above. This is with the ankle ratchet as tight as it will go, flexing toe side. Tons of heel lift.

Pic 9: This is roughly what the Salomon 7.5 boots looked like with overhang on the Flow size Medium binding. It's just an approximation and I'm actually showing the Large binding because I already returned the Medium. I rode on the Mediums like this, and aside from the centering issue mentioned above, the amount of toe overhang was really awkward and I could feel that corner through my boot when applying a lot of pressure for toe side turns/carves. The angle here looks like 2 inches but it was more like 1.5".

Pic 10: For comparison, this is the same boot in a Size Medium K2 Sonic binding, with the footbed/gas pedal fully extended. Fits more or less perfectly, flush with the boot and negligible toe overhang - mostly just boot material.


To clarify, I don't care about fitting the K2 boots to the flows. They're my old pair and basically retired. My goal is to use the Salomons. I just wanted to demonstrate that even with those at size 8, it's a really poor fit for both the M and the L. However, if you see anything here that might make the Salomons fit *either* binding, or any adjustments I missed, I'm all ears. I'd have to return and exchange again, which they said I can't do after I ride on them, but I'll put up a fight if you think that the Mediums are workable despite the issues I highlighted.

If you have any Medium NXT flows in stock, I'd encourage you to grab a 7.5 or 8 boot and test it in there and take a look at the overhang. Given that I found it was huge with 2 different boots, I suspect your experience wouldn't be any different. I appreciate your help though, and although I already bought these from Evo (and your website suggests you are out of Mediums anyway, on the off chance that there is a way to make those work), I'll make a point of purchasing from you in the future ;)
 
#417 ·
Hi JTG,

The centering issue on the Medium is sounding like a correctable issue. I know that we could troubleshoot that one. We fit the overlap sizes to your boot size every day. Was the disk adjustment all the way back for the 7.5 (hardware in the most toeside holes)?
 
#422 ·
When I got my NX2-SE I was shocked at how shitty the included instructions were. Luckily I'm a gear whore and a geek so I knew basically everything about these bindings before I got them.
 
#423 ·
Yes. If you haven't looked recently, I'd suggest taking a look at how much space that really buys you on the flow plates. It's less than half an inch. After doing this, my toe overhang was about 1.5", and the heel of my boot was still about a quarter inch *inside* the edge of the board. As in, not even overhanging yet.
I see what is happening. You are using the Burton Channel holes which offer almost no movement from edge to edge. Riders with trad 4 hole patterns get over an inch of adjustment on the baseplate which would allow you perfect centerring on the same width deck.
 
#425 · (Edited)
Nope, as noted here:

Yes. If you haven't looked recently, I'd suggest taking a look at how much space that really buys you on the flow plates. It's less than half an inch. After doing this, my toe overhang was about 1.5", and the heel of my boot was still about a quarter inch *inside* the edge of the board. As in, not even overhanging yet.


Pic 2: Binding centering. This pic is using the burton channel holes, and as you can see, there is very little room to center the binding left or right. Less than half an inch. On the Large, it is currently centered pretty well and I have it all the way towards the rear. When I had the Mediums, it was actually mounted on a Lib board with traditional 4x4 mounts. In that case, the base plate is rotated from what you see in this pic, and you can slide it left or right along the 4x4 holes to center. On the medium binding on the lib board, I had it rotated and all the way to the right (rear), which brings it closer to center by about 0.5" or less.
You don't get an inch, you get 0.5 inches in either direction from center. The fact that there is room to move it 0.5 inches Forward from center does not get you any extra room to move it closer to the back. BTW, you can do the same thing on the channel mounts by rotating the plate. Regardless, my usual board is a 4x4 and that is what I was testing the Mediums on when I had them.

So, from what I can tell, my only hope is to exchange for the Mediums again and use that 0.5" that I was already using combined with the heelcup depth adjustment john doe pointed out.

Edit: In fact I just measured, and on the traditional 4x4 holes, it's not even 0.5". From center, you can only move it forward or back slightly less than 3/8 of an inch, as measured from the center of the middle hole to the center of the forward-most (toe-side) hole. Not much room at all.
 
#424 ·
Oh, one other thing I noticed. Since you are using a channel board you aren't set in what holes to use. Like you can turn the disk about 45 degrees and use two of the holes for teh 4X4 pattern to bolt down the binding. The degree numbers won't read right but that doesn't matter. Just another way to get more adjustment.

Wiredsports. Having you talked with anyone at Flow about the loose ratchet issue? If so what did they say.
 
#436 ·
This and many other points in this thread have been noted, and are addressed;

- The LSR ratchet-buckle locking will improve and be more consistent among all buckles.
- The Hybrid toe-ladders will increase in length to accommodate more boot-sizes, and the V-toe (Y-shaped) medial ladder will get a slightly steeper angle for a better toecap strap fit. As can be seen in the how-to video's, you can also swap the toecaps and ride them more over-the-toe instead of the in-front-of-toe positioning.
- Stronger SupportPanels, and less sharp bottom edge.
- Stronger baseplate-insert for footbed adjustment-screw.
- Footbeds are now dual-density EVA BankBeds for more cushioning.
- EVA-pad underneath the mounting-disk.
- Extra ankle-ladderstrap position on the NASTY heelcup for increased individual adjustments.

For 2013, the NX2's will be lighter, better and nasty-er!!!
Will I be able to get these updated buckles through warranty so my current NX2 bindings work as advertised with out me having to jerry–rig them?
 
#438 ·
Will I be able to get these updated buckles through warranty so my current NX2 bindings work as advertised with out me having to jerry–rig them?
Certainly! Just email warranty@flow.com at the beginning of next season, and they will be available for you!
Sorry for your troubles this season, and stoked you are such a loyalist. Mention my name 'Solucien' in your email and you'll get hooked up!
 
#426 ·
Hi JTG,

If you are referring to using the non-channel holes for mounting on a channel board (there are only two channel holes) you should not.

When you have the Medium bindings back please send an updated photo and we will walk you through the best setup steps. In the meantime, Waht is the width of your board at the inserts where you are currently mounted?
 
#427 · (Edited)
No, sorry...disregard the board you see in the pictures. I have two boards. The pictures depict the Large bindings on a different board, which is centered fine. Those pictures were only for demonstrating boot fit problems on the Large.

When I tried to mount the Mediums, I used the 4x4 holes on a Lib Tech board with the normal 4x4 pattern. The 4x4 pattern on a 4x4 board lets you have some wiggle from from center in either direction, as you know. You can slide it in the mount holes in either direction by 3/8".

After sliding it forward in the 4x4 on the 4x4 as much as possible (so, screws all the way to the end on the toe side), I was 3/8" closer to centering it, but with a boot in, there was still huge overhang on the toe side and the heel was not even overhanging yet.

Pics on the actual board:

Note: I am goofy, toes are on the left side.

This shows the 4x4 holes mounted centered:


My boot was way over the edge of the front and not over the back. So I moved these back as much as possible:


That brought me about 3/8" closer to the back, but it wasn't even close to enough. My boots looked like the example on the left here:



I did not know about the heelcup depth adjustment though, which john doe just pointed out. Depending how much room that buys me to get my boot back, it may solve my problem.

Oh, one other thing I noticed. Since you are using a channel board you aren't set in what holes to use. Like you can turn the disk about 45 degrees and use two of the holes for teh 4X4 pattern to bolt down the binding. The degree numbers won't read right but that doesn't matter. Just another way to get more adjustment.
You can't actually do that btw. The 2x2 holes are slightly larger than the 4x4 holes, because the channel holes on the board have to fit through them. They're small cylinders on the board that protrude and stick up through the 2x2 holes, and don't fit through the 4x4 holes (I tried).
 
#428 ·
Good info. You will want to use a medium binding and start with the in the furthest back position in the slide that is just over 1 inch. That will be the best starting point. From the looks of it you are working with a 25.5 cm foot and a 25.5 cm board (at your stance witdth). That allows of no barefoot overhang with any stance angle. That is what we have to work with so this is a precision operation :). It is most important that you center your foot, not the boot or the binding. Please send a photo of the boot that you will use once you have it mounted with the medium binding as above and we can fine tune.
 
#429 ·
I don't know where you are getting 1 inch from. Do you mean align them as shown in Pic #2 on my previous post? If so, you can see with the ruler that the left side of the plate goes from 3" in Pic 1, to 3 3/8" in Pic 2. A difference of only 3/8", not 1".

I just want to make sure I am clear before exchanging them again, because it will be hard to return them a third time if this doesn't work :)
 
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