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Old 09-05-2013, 08:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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or why the return rates are considerably lower than for Union in our shops ...[/I][/LIST]
What shops?
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Are you seriously suggesting that the Cartels are stiffer than the Forces!?
lol they are though.. cartels have a flex index of 7.

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Indeed, some real gems in his post:
  • "forces would be so much more ideal on a skate banana than the cartels" - not just better (which is already debatable) but so much more ideal. Me thinks not...
  • "flex pattern is better suited and will have a more natural flow" - Bullshit.
  • "cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle" - Nope.
  • "i know a lot of people that went with cartels and parts were falling apart after about the 50 day mark" - a lot of people, eh? One wonders then why there are so few people complaining about the longevity of Burton bindings here, on EL, etc. or why the return rates are considerably lower than for Union in our shops ...
dude ur getting so worked up over an internet post. u haven't contributed anything to this thread but just try to call out other peoples post. read my post again and u will see I said both were good bindings and he'd be happy with either. im just saying that out of my own personal experience, the force would be better suited, but of course that is for my style of riding.


*"forces would be so much more ideal on a skate banana than the cartels" - not just better (which is already debatable) but so much more ideal. Me thinks not... - how about re-reading my post again and u will see I said I feel that the forces would be more ideal, not a factual statement, just personal opinion.

*"flex pattern is better suited and will have a more natural flow" - Bullshit. - how so? once again, not adding to the thread, just calling out other posts. the baseplates on the forces have been designed so that only 20% of the base actually makes contact with the board, thus allowing for a more natural board flex. if the OP was riding EST cartels with an EST board, than maybe perhaps it could allow for a more natural flex but last time I checked a skate banana doesn't use EST.

*"cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle" - Nope. - im not saying that Cartels are no good for freestyle, just saying I prefer the forces in the park. and if it came down to it, I would choose a pair of malavitas (with a flex of 6, that better match with a board that flexes at a 5) for freestyle over cartels (that have a flex of 7). straight from the burton website - "the Malavita balances full wrap response around your boots with a mid-range flex thatís 100% focused on freestyle."

*"i know a lot of people that went with cartels and parts were falling apart after about the 50 day mark" - a lot of people, eh? One wonders then why there are so few people complaining about the longevity of Burton bindings here, on EL, etc. or why the return rates are considerably lower than for Union in our shops ... - so ur saying I don't know people that bought cartels? how could u even suggest that statement, u have no idea who I am or who I know, so how would you know what bindings theyre riding on? oh and just because u work in a shop doesn't mean shit. I could say the same thing about the one I work at, I've had very few if any complaints at all about the union forces.

maybe try adding a little more to ur replies to actually help the guy choose a binding rather than just rat on everyone who doesn't agree with u. tell us why the cartels are so much better so the OP and other people facing the same decision can come to an easier conclusion. for me, the conclusion was union forces over burton cartels as they are better suited for my style of riding. doesn't mean the cartels are no good.
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:51 PM   #23 (permalink)
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My cartels felt much stiffer and less playful then my forces.
Odd, I found the Cartel's baseplate comparable, the toe strap more responsive, the ankle strap softer, and the high-back more flexible. I think the overall flex of the Force was a tad stiffer. This thread has turned stupid.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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the baseplates on the forces have been designed so that only 20% of the base actually makes contact with the board, thus allowing for a more natural board flex. if the OP was riding EST cartels with an EST board, than maybe perhaps it could allow for a more natural flex but last time I checked a skate banana doesn't use EST.
This whole % of the baseplate thing touching the board is more marketing than real effect. It does something, but not as drastic as Union claims. And guess what, you get more board flex out of these Cartels you're talking about than the Force. ReFlex home slice.

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*"cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle" - Nope. - im not saying that Cartels are no good for freestyle, just saying I prefer the forces in the park. and if it came down to it, I would choose a pair of malavitas (with a flex of 6, that better match with a board that flexes at a 5) for freestyle over cartels (that have a flex of 7).
For starters, are you really comparing numbered flexes between brands? And between bindings and boards on top of that? Good hell. Not to mention you clearly haven't actually ridden the Cartels or Malavitas. And you trust manufacturers websites too. Just winning. The Cartel is softer than the Malavita. This became pretty clear last season.

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I've had very few if any complaints at all about the union forces.
Good for you. I had plenty. And our parts box was empty by January. I personally never had an issue with the 3 pairs I owned. As in they always stayed functional. There were things that broke, but nothing that made the bindings unrideable.

Anyway, I did all that for arguments sake, and to call out bullshit.

OP: Both will fit that board great. I wouldn't get the 2013 Forces though, shoot for 2014. I can't imagine the changes completely fucked the way it rides, so it can't be anything except better. Better toe strap, better shaped heelcup, better heel dampening.

That said, if it were me (except it wouldn't be cause I hate the Banana), Cartels.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:23 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Odd, I found the Cartel's baseplate comparable, the toe strap more responsive, the ankle strap softer, and the high-back more flexible. I think the overall flex of the Force was a tad stiffer. This thread has turned stupid.
Well I can't say you didn't feel what you felt. They were overly responsive for my style of riding. The high back caused pressure points when doing certain tricks and didn't have enough playful flex for my liking. The person I sold them to rides hard and fast and he loves the stiffness. I would not say the force bindings are overly flexible neither, especially compared to my ride rodeo bindings. But they gave me a much more even flex that doesn't cause pain.

As for toe strap response. I honestly can't say that I would notice the difference.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:54 PM   #26 (permalink)
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This whole % of the baseplate thing touching the board is more marketing than real effect. It does something, but not as drastic as Union claims. And guess what, you get more board flex out of these Cartels you're talking about than the Force. ReFlex home slice.
if that's the case, than how does burton's reflex technology have any more credibility over unions? all a marketing gimmick right?


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For starters, are you really comparing numbered flexes between brands?
not between brands, just between burton.

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Anyway, I did all that for arguments sake, and to call out bullshit.
forces and cartels are up there amongst some of the most sought after bindings on the market, so obviously ur going to have the never ending argument between the fans of both. why not just offer ur own opinion on the bindings instead of calling out peoples "bullshit" that's based off of their own personal experiences with the bindings. Ive ridden all 3 plus more and I found the forces most suitable for me. why are u even trying to argue that?
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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if that's the case, than how does burton's reflex technology have any more credibility over unions? all a marketing gimmick right?
Burton's ReFlex lets the whole binding bend in the middle... Union still has a solid disc. Which do you think has a bigger dead spot? Oh and I'VE OWNED BOTH (all caps for dramatic effect). ReFlex works more.

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not between brands, just between burton.
Should we all re-read what you wrote?
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Originally Posted by Steezus Christ View Post
I would choose a pair of malavitas (with a flex of 6, that better match with a board that flexes at a 5) for freestyle over cartels (that have a flex of 7).
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Originally Posted by Steezus Christ View Post
forces and cartels are up there amongst some of the most sought after bindings on the market, so obviously ur going to have the never ending argument between the fans of both. why not just offer ur own opinion on the bindings instead of calling out peoples "bullshit" that's based off of their own personal experiences with the bindings. Ive ridden all 3 plus more and I found the forces most suitable for me. why are u even trying to argue that?
Yeah I think I did offer my opinion. And called out your koolaid bullshit.
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Old 09-07-2013, 05:07 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Burton's ReFlex lets the whole binding bend in the middle... Union still has a solid disc. Which do you think has a bigger dead spot? Oh and I'VE OWNED BOTH (all caps for dramatic effect). ReFlex works more.


Should we all re-read what you wrote?




Yeah I think I did offer my opinion. And called out your koolaid bullshit.
you cant argue against somebodies personal preferences. there is literally no way of disproving it. I prefer to ride union. that's it. tell me more about how much you prefer burtons, I'm not arguing that they're bad bindings. just in my own experience, I prefer the forces.
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:31 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Where are you reading that I said your recommendation or opinion was wrong? I dont see it. I see where I point out things you call opinions are indeed facts.

Your "opinion" about more boardflex is wrong based on physics. You compared flex numbers between brands, then denied it. And you gave your experience with their durability. I didn't say yours was wrong, simply gave mine as well. Then I gave my personal opinion.

Someones angry I called them out on the interwebz!
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Last edited by Nivek; 09-08-2013 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:48 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I have had both but sold the cartels because they were too stiff for me. What kind of riding do you do? And what kind of stiffness are you looking for?

I ride the 2013 force and I love how it feels but toe strap is a pain in the ass to pop loose riding up to the lift. If you can deal with that, then that's what I would suggest.
Yeah, you're referring to the 2013 and older Unions. They revamped the toe straps on all Union models and added push pins to some. Is it an overall fix? I couldn't tell you. I coughed up some dough for a pair of the 2014 Atlas and 2014 Contacts and to me, the toe straps are easier to get out of than my 2012 flites. Most people don't have a clue unless they do their own homework and get off their ass and into a shop and do the dirty work. Everybody wants to take the golden word of the internet..."I saw it on the internet, so it must be true"
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