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Old 12-30-2010, 03:32 AM   #321 (permalink)
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When do they start knocking 15-20% off of the list price? March? It has been a while since I've bought a board...
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Old 12-30-2010, 08:35 AM   #322 (permalink)
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Default Travis Rice - Great board

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Originally Posted by Sitdownson View Post
Anyones store here sell Lib Tech Travis Rice C2BTX 161.5 boards??? Im about to buy one and would prefer to buy from someones site on here.
Our on-line inventory says we only have the Lib Tech Travis Rice C2BTX in a 153 and a 157 but you may want to call Dave, our customer service guy, to make sure because all kinds of stuff has been returned and its been messing up our inventory You can reach him at the main Jib Shop number 877-227-0859.

Feel free to contact me if you need anything else

See ya on the Slopes!
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:15 PM   #323 (permalink)
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Default Burton Snowboard Coat

is this a good deal?
Burton Ronin Jacket Brand New! - eBay (item 180606519385 end time Jan-05-11 20:21:37 PST)
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:32 AM   #324 (permalink)
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Default If the deal looks too good to be true...it probably is :)

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Looks like I'm too late to help you out since the bidding appears to be closed but I felt I needed to say my piece about E-Bay. E-Bay is both a blessing and a curse to the industry. It provides a great opportunity to buy/sell goods...especially used stuff that has been outgrown or is no longer needed - those items used to just waste space in our closets and now can be turned into cash while helping someone else get something they like inexpensively.

The curse of E-Bay, however, is that it provides a large market for the less honest people in our society. Theft of boards at resorts is at an all-time high because of the easy access to the wide customer base that E-Bay provides. The number one cause of In-Store shrinkage is theft...and 90% of it is sold on E-Bay, often times for WELL under retail value.

This may, on the surface, not seem like such a bad deal - I mean heck, who wouldn't like to get a brand new board or jacket for 1/8th of the cost? That is a very short-sighted point of view because...as they say...There is No Free Lunch. That product has to be paid for in some way - if not by the consumer immediately then it will trickle down into higher average in-store prices to cover the cost of the goods that were stolen in previous years.

Most snowboard shops are small businesses...by small I mean that one person - a passionate enthusiast...or maybe a couple of buddies start a store because they love what they do and want to share it with other people...with the exception of say Evogear and a few of the other big guys (I'll save that for another rant nobody in this business is getting rich - they make a living, can send their kids to college but it is not a mega-money maker...it is a living. Anytime someone cuts prices or steals merchandise they 1. devalue the product and 2. cut into the living of a family.

What does it mean to DEvalue a product? Well say you can pay $50 bucks for a brand-new Burton jacket that sells in the store for $300...are you EVER going to be willing to pay $300 again? No - and if you DO you will always think the store is riping you off. To be honest the snowboard industry is one of the last places you actually get true value for your dollar spent. Your average Nike men's shoe runs about $70...but the 'landed cost' is nowhere above $5 for that same shoe - that means that the cost to produce that shoe, the materials, labor and shipping cost for that shoe is about $5. What you are paying for from there is marketing and the support of a huge corporate structure...and of course, theft.

In the snowboard world 'landed-cost' is far closer to the retail cost because the product is expensive to produce...great zippers, lots of pockets, technical fabrics, great advanced technology...but not huge corporate structure...and if we all play by the rules, not the theft.

I don't want to stay up on my soap box for too long but here's the reality of it. If you see an amazing deal on E-bay and it seems too good to be true, it probably is. The Internet Fraud Divisions of various law enforcement agencies are looking VERY hard at E-Bay for this reason. For ALL purchases on E-Bay you should check your sources and make sure the goods are not stolen...a favorable E-Bay rating does not mean the seller is honest. I have seen merchandise from some of the top rated E-Bay sellers that still has the tags from the store they stole it from! Keep in mind that if you are in possession of stolen merchandise, whether you 'paid' for it or not you can be held accountable. Even if you don't get in trouble for purchasing stolen merchandise you, or someone else in the industry will eventually have to pay. Karma is a bitch
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:54 AM   #325 (permalink)
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eBay is great for used goods or pretty old closeouts. For any current or even some season old gear, many brands do not allow their products to be on eBay. So say you see a brand new, unused 2011 Burton Custom for sale on there, know that whoever is selling that is breaking seller agreements. The only time it is allowed is if it is a random person who bought it and decided to sell it back for whatever reason. Not everyone is who they seem though. I've seen some shops sell on there under different names.

Just think about that next time you are about to purchase that item. Realize that you might be buying into a less-than-honest business practice.

Question for you Kjerstin: What's your stance on shops that began as a family owned business, but has since become an Internet retailer? Yes, I'm talking about the company I work for. Our owner still operates several shops here in Michigan and Michigan only. We aren't nearly as big as EVO or The-House, but we aren't a small shop anymore either.

Sorry, I had to ask because I feel that you are unfairly lumping all those who run Internet businesses together as a bad group. Remember, some of these Internet companies started out as exactly what you describe as a "mom and pop shop." And not all of these retailers are running their business like __you probably know who__ did.

I also want to point out that if it isn't for some bigger retailers, many of our beloved snowboard brands wouldn't be able to churn out awesome gear. It's because of these higher volume sales that they gain the capital needed to dump into R&D. And these higher volume sales are possible because of the discounts that are able to be offered.
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:56 AM   #326 (permalink)
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Default 'Big' isn't Bad

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Originally Posted by Leo View Post
eBay is great for used goods or pretty old closeouts. For any current or even some season old gear, many brands do not allow their products to be on eBay. So say you see a brand new, unused 2011 Burton Custom for sale on there, know that whoever is selling that is breaking seller agreements. The only time it is allowed is if it is a random person who bought it and decided to sell it back for whatever reason. Not everyone is who they seem though. I've seen some shops sell on there under different names.

Just think about that next time you are about to purchase that item. Realize that you might be buying into a less-than-honest business practice.

Question for you Kjerstin: What's your stance on shops that began as a family owned business, but has since become an Internet retailer? Yes, I'm talking about the company I work for. Our owner still operates several shops here in Michigan and Michigan only. We aren't nearly as big as EVO or The-House, but we aren't a small shop anymore either.

Sorry, I had to ask because I feel that you are unfairly lumping all those who run Internet businesses together as a bad group. Remember, some of these Internet companies started out as exactly what you describe as a "mom and pop shop." And not all of these retailers are running their business like __you probably know who__ did.

I also want to point out that if it isn't for some bigger retailers, many of our beloved snowboard brands wouldn't be able to churn out awesome gear. It's because of these higher volume sales that they gain the capital needed to dump into R&D. And these higher volume sales are possible because of the discounts that are able to be offered.
Some great points - and it is great to get some of this info out to the general public. I'm not saying Big is Bad...The company I work for is an internet player. We are a small, Mom and Pop store that started in the ski/snowboard industry in 1970 - we have seen all of the trends...frankly there isn't that much out there that is truly new...the Internet is just a revamped version of the catalog business. Yes, we do well on the internet and it is a vital part of our defensive stance to survive in the industry.

My feeling about large companies, however, isn't with thier size...it is with their business practices and what they do to survive and how it affects the industry at large. As you know, we don't work on large margins so we work long hours and a few people spread themselves thin to do all the work that is necessary...but it is a really fun life. I've been in the industry for over 20 years now so there are very few people in the industry that I don't know and from the shop owners, to the Reps all the way up to the vendor CEO's things all pretty much work the same way...until you get someone from outside the industry who thinks they are going to teach us how to do things. They buy too heavily thinking there is more of a market out there and we just don't know what we are doing then they drop their prices below a sustainable level and devalue the product, then go bankrupt and resurface to try again...obviously that is only one story...there is also the investment bankers who come in and realize that they can't make money on the small ski/snowboard industry so they use that product as a loss-leader to sell their bike and other sporting goods where they DO make money...it still devalues our industry. Since I previously used Evogear's name I will speak to that comment specifically....I really DON'T have a problem with them...they have a great brick-n-mortar that clearly strikes a chord with the Seattle market and Freemont is a perfect venue for them. What I'm not impressed with, however, is the lip-service they pay to the industry while working every way they can around the dealer agreements you mentioned before.

This industry is so small that it requires ALL of us to row the boat in the same direction. I completely agree with you that it is due to the internet sales that some of the vendors are able to stay in business...but internet sales by the original Mom-n'-Pop's like yours and mine NOT the Johnny-come-lately's that don't understand the business and have to fortify their sales by taking losses on the snowboard side while making larger margins with other industry goods...please don't misread that - I am not saying that carrying other industry goods is a bad thing...I'm just saying not at the expense of the snowboard industry.

The cold hard fact remains that there are only so many jackets, pants and snowboards that are going to be sold...yes, we can work to grow the industry but that is not what I'm talking about. When companies over buy because they don't understand the industry that helps no one and the big guys have done as much damage to the small vendors as they have helped...a huge order is great but strains a small company and will kill that same small vendor if the order is canceled. It is not how these companies behave in the good years - heck, in the good years we all look smart...it is how they behave in the bad years that determines whether they are good for the industry or not.

A couple of years ago when the East Coast had no winter and the West had nearly nothing many of the big internet companies immediately dropped prices and totally killed the market, flooding it with low cost goods and making it virtually impossible to for reputable companies to maintain our dealer agreements or even pay our bills - but most of us found a way to pay our bills...a few lost their businesses but most of those industry bills were covered by Buying Group agreements etc...very few vendors were left high and dry from Mom and Pop business...the ones that didn't pay their bills were mostly big guys. They declared bankruptcy and stuck the industry for the bill - it is amazing some of the vendors survived and more amazing that they would be willing to sell to them again.

So please let me summarize - I love internet sales...I think it is a great way to get the best sell-through especially on unique goods...my problem is in business practices and I feel many of the big/new guys don't understand the industry and treat it as casually as a one-night stand and don't understand that it is a fragile entity that requires sustainable practices - where everyone in the chain from the vendor to the consumer plays a vital role.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:07 AM   #327 (permalink)
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Thank you very much Kjerstin.

I don't have nearly as big of a grasp on this market as you do. I hope to achieve that someday though! I am totally on the same page as you. Business practices mean a great deal to me. Hence I would never work for Wal-Mart. Although they are insanely smart with taking advantage of cutting edge technology for shipping/receiving, they treat their employees like dirt and have a blatant disregard for small markets (India being an example).

Although the company I work for now is pretty big (although much smaller than EVO), I like the fact that 99% of the people here participate in the various sports that we sell gear for. The owner himself has been skiing for decades and it is the very reason why he got in this business. He's here all the time (of course during the winter he takes several absences lol) and is highly active around the office and our shops.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. That was a good read
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:29 AM   #328 (permalink)
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Default That is why the industry is so fun :)

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Thank you very much Kjerstin.

I don't have nearly as big of a grasp on this market as you do. I hope to achieve that someday though! I am totally on the same page as you. Business practices mean a great deal to me. Hence I would never work for Wal-Mart. Although they are insanely smart with taking advantage of cutting edge technology for shipping/receiving, they treat their employees like dirt and have a blatant disregard for small markets (India being an example).

Although the company I work for now is pretty big (although much smaller than EVO), I like the fact that 99% of the people here participate in the various sports that we sell gear for. The owner himself has been skiing for decades and it is the very reason why he got in this business. He's here all the time (of course during the winter he takes several absences lol) and is highly active around the office and our shops.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. That was a good read
There are some great shops in Michigan and without knowing which one you work for I already have a ton of respect for you and your boss - the whole company. It is employees like you and businesses like you work for that will keep this industry alive for a long time!

I like your comment about Walmart...I think TAKING ADVANTAGE is the key part there. You know in a world like we live in where anything is possible - when there is an imbalance it is because either one side is not doing their part or the other is not playing fair...

Here's to always doing our part and always playing fair!
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:43 AM   #329 (permalink)
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Leo, Kjerstin

I just want to throw my 2 cents in. I hear your frustration K, but it is not just new and big guys that drop price. I would call them all "people who don't care about the industry and only themselves." I see it all over the country as I buy for a retailer that operates in a few states (we have been around for 30+ years). The guys that drop prices "to make snowboarding affordable" fail to realize that snowsports are expensive, they are a luxury. I just rented a place in Keystone for $3k...that's a few mortgage payments and it doesn't include airfare, lift tickets, transportation and food. Don't think that I am in for making this sport expensive, I would love to go back to the 90's when I said I wouldn't ski at Vail anymore if their tickets got over $60/day. The industry as a whole needs work together to bring new blood into the sport; one part of the pie cannot do it alone.

There is so much expense involved with running a ski shop (less if it is solely ecommerce) and "breaking even" means loosing money and closing your doors. It's unfortunate when poor east coast snow puts mom and pops under, but it is a victory for legit retailers when it gets rid of "Joe Snowboard Liquidator" who is 40% off on Sept. 1st.

There are a lot of good retailers (and e-tailers) out there. Leo I know your company and have had the privilege of being on some trips with your owner; keep it up, Michigan needs you guys (I went to school in West Michigan). K, I don't who you work for, but it sounds like you guys are doing a good thing in P-Burg.

Here's to 2011 not being 2009...
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:48 AM   #330 (permalink)
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Nice Jg! I never knew you knew him. I'd like to hear the story if you so feel like telling it. I'd definitely be bringing it up to him. Would be awesome if you have a drunk story or something

He's definitely a character.
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