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Effective edge lenght or stiffness of a board for statbility?

5K views 39 replies 12 participants last post by  return2heaven 
#1 ·
What's more important when it comes to stability for a board? It's effective edge lenght or stiffness.

Let's say two boards have exact same design (camber profile, side cut, edge tech etc...) but
board one is softer but has longer effective edge and board two has shorter effective edge but stiffer. Which board will be more stable at higher speeds?
 
#2 ·
high speed what? flat basing or turning?
soft board tend to wash out high speed turning because it bends too much. shorter boards are more subject to imperfection in snow.
harder board can be a bitch at low speed so can longer softer board.
its all depends.
 
#4 ·
It's not that simple. There's other factors at play. The primary one being dampness. A damper board will feel more stable. Stiffness doesn't necessarily equal dampness. Dampness really just comes down to personal preference. Some people like a really damp board while other people think that really damp boards just feel dead and lifeless.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I thought dampness is more of how a board feels more so than how a board is actually riding. Even though a board may be getting bump around by imperfect snow, you "feel" more stable on a damp board since you don't feel the bumps.

At least that's how I understood the "dampness" characteristics of a board.
If not, which board will feel more "damp" and stable from my original question. One with longer effective edge, or stiffer board.
 
#9 ·
Not to hijack, but what do you think of that Templar overall? I just ordered last year's model for $140? Seemed like what I'm looking for. Mild camber underfoot with rocker in the tips, mid-flex, and slight setback. I figure for $140 if it's not what I'm looking for I'll just flip it on Craigslist for what I paid and move on.

But to answer your question, no. You want a damper board. Not necessarily longer or stiffer, just damper. This is where NS excels. Those boards are damp as all hell.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I like it but I'm a big fan of Rossi's camrock profile. I like my TRS but I still prefer camber or even flat profile between the bindings over rocker between the bindings profile

I already had the Angus in 153 and I got the 155 Templar mainly due to the Mag. It rides shorter than the length and fun to dick around the mountain. It isn't very damp though so you will feel the bumps when going fast.
 
#10 ·
I think it depends on the weight of the rider. I've ridden two prototype boards, long effective edge (BX style) boards that were really soft. Designed to get new riders carving earlier. I had fun on the thing going slow, but as soon as my speed and momentum (200 lbs) picked up, the nose essentially folded over during a hard carve... on a green run.

I was able to carve faster on a shorter, stiffer board.

Obviously everyone wants a compromise, but if you gave me a 163 soft ass BX board, and a stiff 156 twin, I would choose the stiff shorter one.

After all... whats the point of having a big one if it's always soft and flimsy?
 
#17 · (Edited)
Yeah as I learned last month in Whistler damp and flex aren't the same thing. Everyone has their own definition of dampness but to me, it's the ability to absorb crud and other unevenness.

Case in point, SL vs. Proto. Both flexes quite similar (Throw in the Cobra here as well even though rated a bit more stiff) according to NS. Proto less damp than the rest. Flexing on fresh groomers they are quite similar. Good flex with some snap.

But when I hit Whistler last month on a great powder day, going down slopes destroyed by skiers was a chore. Bounced around, pushed around etc. The Cobra and even Arbor Coda were much better and more fun. The SL was a few years ago but I remember it being better as well. The Effective Edge on the Proto is high for it's size. The Proto was absolutely fun in baby parks I go to, and around the mountain on decent surfaces.

Heritage might be your ticket, but I've never ridden it. Check out the Coda if you can. But it's not your preferred camber style. I enjoyed it on Tahoe crud. Blasted right over the top of it and through it. For me, it's like driving a lowered rice rocket over several dips, each dip your car bouncing higher due to cumulative effect and next thing you know you're in the air. Same as boards that aren't damp. One or two crud mounds and you're fine but if you've got several by the 3rd or 4th you're on your ass
 
#20 ·
Yeah as I learned last month in Whistler damp and flex aren't the same thing. Everyone has their own definition of dampness but to me, it's the ability to absorb crud and other unevenness.

Case in point, SL vs. Proto. Both flexes quite similar (Throw in the Cobra here as well even though rated a bit more stiff) according to NS. Proto less damp than the rest. Flexing on fresh groomers they are quite similar. Good flex with some snap.

But when I hit Whistler last month on a great powder day, going down slopes destroyed by skiers was a chore. Bounced around, pushed around etc. The Cobra and even Arbor Coda were much better and more fun. The SL was a few years ago but I remember it being better as well. The Effective Edge on the Proto is high for it's size.

Heritage might be your ticket, but I've never ridden it. Check out the Coda if you can. But it's not your preferred camber style. I enjoyed it on Tahoe crud. Blasted right over the top of it and through it. For me, it's like driving a lowered rice rocket over several dips, each dip your car bouncing higher due to cumulative effect and next thing you know you're in the air. Same as boards that aren't damp. One or two crud mounds and you're fine but if you've got several by the 3rd or 4th you're on your ass
Good info. As mentioned, earlier I prefer camber or flat between the bindings than the rocker between the bindings. I may look into one of Jones/Yes boards or even a Rome Mod rocker.
 
#22 ·
Main info I wanted to get was, given everything being equal, will a stiffer board at same length I typically ride (153-155) or a longer (157-159) but same stiffness board will be better(more stable) for the the conditions and type of riding I described.

I understand it's not as simple as just these two factors but I wanted to get a better understanding of how these two characteristics play into stability of a board.

I guess a simple example would be since I have a Rossi Templar at 155, would getting a 155 Rossi One Mag(stiffer board with similar design) be better or getting another Templar at 159 would be better for these conditions and type of riding I described.

From the replies I'm getting, it seems dampness is more important than effective edge length or stiffness of a board.
 
#19 ·
He's looking for a board that will cut through crud at higher speeds.

Dampness is what he's after, I think.

I'm in a similar boat. Hence I'm getting rid of Proto and have a Happy Hour on it's way. :yahoo: Hopefully it gets here before I leave Thursday am to Utah
 
#25 ·
Wow...I am LOVING this thread. I am somewhat in the same boat as the OP and am searching for a new board to help progress my riding.

1. What exactly is DAMPNESS anyways...???
2. Can someone put dampness in layman's terms for me please...??? Or better yet...can someone give me a analogy/metaphor I can understand.

I have been riding for about 5 years and I feel like I should know what dampness is but I stopped riding for the last 2 years and am really confused and at a lost right now.

Thanks.
 
#30 ·
1. What exactly is DAMPNESS anyways...???
2. Can someone put dampness in layman's terms for me please...??? Or better yet...can someone give me a analogy/metaphor I can understand.
Wow I totall forgot about that thread! So based on that, I would define snowboard "dampness" as "vibration resistance".

If you're riding over chop, a more damp board will sort of tame the roughness and transfer less vibrations to your legs (allowing you to potentiall have more control in the chop).

I am 5'10 (178cm) and 155LBS.
Yeah, a 153-155 (depending on the board) may be on the short side for you. Have you tried riding something in the upper 150's? Can't remember the start of the thread.

Also I thought the T.Rice Pro was supposed to be a much better high speed board than the TRS?
 
#26 ·
I still don't know what is dampness...I understand the concept...but unsure of the feeling....:laugh:

As for a discussion of dampness....
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/boards/48614-great-damp-myth.html

Length does matter for speed stability when bombing groomers; stiffness does matter for holding edges....and full camber holds better than flat or reverse/rocker. I like to feel what I riding over...mentally....however physically my old bones/joints would rather have dampening.

But to add to the discussion:

I like liveliness...and I am learning to ride with a lighter touch and when it gets rough I try to get loose and suck up my legs/feet and attempt to float over the shit and trust the edges when I land...which does seem work as far as stability goes.

idk....carry on
 
#27 ·
Dampness, two kinds:

Ability to keep you on your line through different terrain.

How much you can feel the terrain under foot.

You can have one or the other or both.

The Ride Crush is actually pretty smooth under foot but wouldn't really be considered the other damp. The Jones Aviator will charge through must of what you put in front of it but you feel everything you roll over. Flow Blackout will charge through anything and the ABT makes it very quiet and smooth under foot.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Thanks for the explanation.

But now after reading the posts above...the wheels have been turning in my head...

1. Surely...the design and tech specifics of your boots and bindings will also affect dampness too right...I mean...they are part of the package/system...???

2. If they do...How much so vs the board...???

3. What percentage of each of your equipment (boot,binding,board) will contribute to dampness and how will it affect the way you "feel" the terrain...???

4. Is the board really the only determining factor for dampness...???

Thanks. Sorry to make this post even more complicated/technical. Haha LOL.
 
#31 ·
Thanks. Sorry to make this post even more complicated/technical. Haha LOL.
I think the board is the biggest factor because it's the only part actually touching the snow. Here's my analogy of a snowboard system vs a car.

1) The board is the tires: It's the part that touches the running surface. Low profile tires have much less rubber between the road and rim, and therefore much more vibration or impacts will be transfered to the rim. A damp board would be like driving with tall 15" tires vs lower profile 17" tires (given the same overall tire diameter).

2) The bindings and boots make up all the components between the tires and the shock absorbers/struts/dampers in your car. This is the rim, hub, arms, ball joints, bushings, etc. If this system is stiff, you will be able to feel more of the road/snow. I like a stiff boot/binding setup because I want tons of feedback from the board.

3) Your legs are the shocks/dampers/struts. If you drive your car over a 6" speedbump at 30 km/h the tires will compress and rebound marginally, while the shocks will compress and rebound likely 5" or so. When we hit a solid bump in the snow, the board doesn't magically absorb all of the motion and transfer nothing to our legs (no matter how "damp") so your legs must absorb the whole bump.

My belief on what a damp board can do is: be less likely to have harmonic vibrations through the length of the board, transferring unnecessary vibrations up the system to your legs.

Take a look at the first 30 seconds of this vid, and look at the tips of the skis vibrate. I would assume that a less damp ski would have more amplitude to the vibrations, while a more damp ski would have less amplitude (and therefore transfer less of the vibration to the rider).

 
#32 ·
If you spend the money on a few lessons and learn to ride and carve properly you won't even need to worry about effective edge. Effective edge comes up for noobs a lot because they scrape down the mountain and hit the brakes a lot when they start feeling scared and out of control. Work on technique and you will be so much further ahead.

That said I agree with Nivek that something Camrock will make you feel more confident, but it won't really improve your riding. It will just disguise the fact that your mechanics need work. But definitely fun boards, especially in fresh.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Huh? What does your post have anything to do with what I'm asking? I'm asking will having longer effective edge help me feel more stable while going faster on crud. Not will it help me stop and slow down.

This has nothing or very little to do with riding technique or ability. You can be a pro and still feel unstable riding fast on a short soft board.
 
#34 ·
"They all do well when the snow is descent but I've been doing alot of night riding lately when all the snow has been chopped up and typically icy.

Even with magnetracktion, I was getting bumped around when going fast. I don't flat base (no edging) much but I do like to straight line steep runs on a slight edge. When I do this, my boards feel very bump and chattery and I feel like I'm going to get bumped and wipe out."


This won't happen to you if you are carving and using dynamic movements with your legs and knees. I'm always amazed when I go out for a "freshener" with an Instructor buddy and I realize how much easier it is to rip through variable terrain when I'm riding properly or at least better than I normally do technique wise. It's clear from the problem you stated above that it has less to do with the board and more with the way you are riding ""steep runs on a slight edge".

Just trying to help you out, take it or leave it.
 
#39 ·
It's not really a problem where I'm actually wiping out but I really feel the bumps and don't like the feeling at certain speeds.

Maybe it's a tolerance thing. So let me ask you. Do you feel anything when you hit some death cookies while going fast on your TRS?
 
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