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Old 10-03-2012, 04:38 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john doe View Post
I think you've stumbled into a good topic for one of your tech articles. Set up a blind test with identical set ups. Both structured as you like. One waxed and one not. Might take a little doing but it will certainly be interesting.
I bet we could get TT to snowboard blindfolded with a helmet cam.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:14 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BurtonAvenger View Post
Eh go for it I'll continue to state the truth and refer to it as psychological what the difference is.
would you say that even on the flats with wet snow wax makes no difference - that it's all about structure in the base?
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:34 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BurtonAvenger View Post
Eh go for it I'll continue to state the truth and refer to it as psychological what the difference is.
Idk. my friend had a 2 season old Skate banana that hadn't seen any wax but from the factory. I begged him to let me wax it just amuse myself at least, because he didn't think it would make a difference. After the first run he literally hugged me thanking me saying what a huge difference it was, he never felt his board move as smoothly as it did that day, on the flats, jibs, etc. Keep in mind he didn't believe in wax either...so where is the psychology there?

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Old 10-03-2012, 10:54 AM   #44 (permalink)
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there is so much bullshit and misinformation in this thread it is ridiculous.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:59 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ShredLife View Post
there is so much bullshit and misinformation in this thread it is ridiculous.
so what's the truth? not being a dick, I just honestly don't know what to believe.

I'm riding man-made snow, so I doubt wax is going to make a difference. My only question is, would waxing often protect the base from wear longer? obviously, it's going to wear out over time like anything, but would waxing prolong the life of the base (sintered)?
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:15 PM   #46 (permalink)
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you don't wax to protect the life of your board. a thin layer of wax will not protect plastic.

you wax to go faster. if it didn't work then racers wouldn't waste so much time, tech, and money on it. race courses do not go thru flats.

on pow days in the PNW it for sure makes a difference and that's all i really care about.

on man-made snow i probably wouldn't bother with it but on pow or packed pow for sure.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:19 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShredLife View Post
you don't wax to protect the life of your board. a thin layer of wax will not protect plastic.

you wax to go faster. if it didn't work then racers wouldn't waste so much time, tech, and money on it. race courses do not go thru flats.

on pow days in the PNW it for sure makes a difference and that's all i really care about.

on man-made snow i probably wouldn't bother with it but on pow or packed pow for sure.
makes sense to me.

Thanks man.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:23 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BurtonAvenger View Post
My friends that are pro opening day at Breck were talking about how they waxed the night before so they could clear the jumps, dudes were making it to the knuckle I was taking it to flat every time unless I drastically speed checked.
oh you so pro bro...
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:49 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I had the feeling for a while that waxing was just a piece of info-marketing that worked really well, and noticed a difference in speed only on flats, on a slushy day.
That said, I love to wax my boards the night before a powder day...it's just a ritual of love.

Zardoz no- wax works really well too on slush...but I'm worried that it could bee too toxic. Any info on that?


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Originally Posted by herzogone View Post
During the winter that wasn’t I did quite a bit of reading on this subject, and there seems to be some confusion persistent here.

First let me state that sintered P-Tex, or UHMWPE, is a pretty awesome material for the purposes of snowboard bases. It has very low friction, doesn’t really absorb moisture, resists impacts, and is incredibly abrasion resistant (10 times more than carbon steel).

The idea that sintered bases are porous and absorb wax like a sponge is a myth (or at best a “poor” analogy). UHMWPE consists of crystalline lamellae and amorphous (disordered) regions. The crystalline lamellae are the ordered regions that give the P-Tex the whitish, dry appearance (sometimes incorrectly called “oxidation”). Wax simply binds to the surface, filling the amorphous regions and binding the lamellae. Wax does generally measurably increase the hydrophobicity of the surface, which improves glide on snow (as everyone with a freshly waxed board has no doubt experienced to some degree).

Interestingly, Leonid Kuzmin’s PhD thesis “Interfacial Kinetic Ski Friction” demonstrates that it is even possible to produce a lower friction surface on UHMWPE without any wax, through structuring alone. I know he has been widely criticized on the internet, but based on the critiques given I think few of those people actually bothered to read his thesis. I read it in its entirety. He simply demonstrates that it is possible to get optimal glide without wax, if the surface is correctly structured. This does not mean simply not waxing is faster. In fact, he clearly shows that an unwaxed stone ground base is slower than a waxed base (as everyone has experienced). His findings are really about showing that wax is not necessary if a different structuring technique is used in place of stone grinding. Unfortunately for us, I think his method only readily applies to edgeless cross-country skis, since it involves scraping the base with a steel scraper (also, personally, I have no desire to sacrifice base material in the name of performance).

For my own views on the original post, I’m with BA on waxing. That is, I don’t do it anymore. I didn’t wax all last season and noticed no detrimental effects, aside from a little less glide in the flats. I’ve haven't experienced any increase in unpredictability on snow or jibs. The only time I might even still consider waxing is during spring mashed-potato snow, but last season here on the ice coast we pretty much missed that altogether. I used to wax every few days on the snow, but I found it didn’t last long. My advice is, unless you’re a die-hard racer, give a try to going waxless. It won’t do any damage and you may save yourself a bit of money, hassle, and even reduce potential health/environmental risks from PFCs. On the latter point, if you do prefer to wax, consider a PFC-free wax if possible.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:06 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRKRIDER View Post
I had the feeling for a while that waxing was just a piece of info-marketing that worked really well, and noticed a difference in speed only on flats, on a slushy day.
That said, I love to wax my boards the night before a powder day...it's just a ritual of love.

Zardoz no- wax works really well too on slush...but I'm worried that it could bee too toxic. Any info on that?
On your quote, the part about saving money, you can re use scrapped off wax!
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