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Old 01-31-2013, 07:52 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Maybe this flame war should be handled via P.M?
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:55 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by crash77 View Post
Quick question. When the "design team" reports unbiased feedback back to NS, is or will that feedback be posted on the forum? I have never owned a NS board, but I am interested in the 2014 Proto. There had to be some neg/constructive feedback to add the "harmonic dampening" (I think that's what I read it stands for). So for anybody who owns or has had a chance to ride any model Proto, what didn't you like about it?
Yup, as a member of the design team I plan on being brutally honest. Both with NS and the forum.

People need to get over this 'design team/snowboarding forum conspiracy' theory. NS approached me to test some park boards and give some feedback to improve the board and let people know what I think, which is what I plan to do. I got the product, been riding the shit out of it, and I'll give my opinion. Bottom line is I'll still be riding other brands and hyping what I like, NS or not.

The only reason it's been kept under wraps til now is because they didn't want to start hyping next years boards before dealers could sell this years shit. I actually think the initial announcement date was too early as it was, but whatever. It was all going to be unvieled at the same time, the announcement, the reviews, the feedback, and so on. Snowolf's been working diligently to orchestrate this whole thing so it would benefit the members of the forum. But now we have ass clowns trying to de-legitimize the riders and the brand by insinuating we won't be giving honest reviews. It's funny that those who are asserting this are the ones most guilty of it themselves.

I've been riding my boards here. If you want to know how I think they handle it, check out my review thread.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:57 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Maybe this flame war should be handled via P.M?
Nope, if I'm getting called out publicly, I'm going to handle it publicly. People can decide for themselves.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:11 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crash77 View Post
Quick question. When the "design team" reports unbiased feedback back to NS, is or will that feedback be posted on the forum? I have never owned a NS board, but I am interested in the 2014 Proto. There had to be some neg/constructive feedback to add the "harmonic dampening" (I think that's what I read it stands for). So for anybody who owns or has had a chance to ride any model Proto, what didn't you like about it?
Read my Evo review. I talked about it's limits at speed even though it is not what the board was built for.

As for this ridiculous debate...

Look Ippy, everything you said is mostly perpetuated by riders on this forum that have absolutely nothing to do with the Design team. They may have been influenced by one of our reviews though. They went and bought their own NS and they are the ones hyping it.

Threads are created asking about NS and some of us reviewers go in there and answer as best we can. You keep mentioning that NS is being shoved down people's throats. So what? Why do you bring that up in a debate about the Design Team? That insinuates that you are referring to us. Otherwise, it is just customers hyping a brand they like.

If you are in fact trying to suggest one of the Design Team members is "shoving" NS down people's throats, post up some evidence. I'm not telling you to do that in a manner of "I don't believe you." I'm telling you to do that so that person/those people can tone it down.

About free gear, I've been getting free gear for over 3 years. I haven't paid for a snowboard in that amount of time. I had a K2 Turbo Dream before becoming a Design Team member. I sold it after riding the Proto. I also have a review for the TD on this forum.

I dare not say any brand makes the best boards. All I can say is that I'm thoroughly satisfied with my NS boards. And that's the truth no matter if you believe it to be biased or not.

I'll provide you with a copy and paste of an Email Vince sent to Snowolf and myself:

Quote:
We actually encourage you and the rest of the design team to test and review other brands. It makes you look unbiased
and will help keep you current on what other companies are doing and we can learn a lot from what you liked and disliked.

Please feel free to write reviews on other boards, ride everything and let people know.
By the way, why didn't anyone knock Snowolf for reviewing other products he got for free? Because those products aren't hyped? WiredSports hands him gear to review regularly. Why aren't you jumping on their backs? They even do regular giveaways here too. None of you are complaining about that.

I'm glad you guys aren't complaining about that other stuff. You shouldn't. WiredSports provides awesome information and is generous enough to give away boards. Maybe you all forgot that Never Summer is also on here doing giveaways. Maybe you all forgot that Never Summer has changed their graphics and base colors for you a number of times after you all complained.

Seriously, let's just stop this nonsense. If you don't like any of this, don't pay any attention to the reviews or NS posts. Keep on suggesting the gear that you like and nevermind what others are saying.

As for me, I'm gonna continue riding gear and reviewing them regardless of the brand or whether or not I get something for free.

And let's be real... you wouldn't turn down an opportunity like this so don't be a hypocrite.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:13 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Hey Extremo,

I don't have a dog in this fight. That's exactly what I'm looking for, unbiased critiques of any and all brand boards by experienced riders. Appreciate the review, I'll check it out!
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:25 AM   #106 (permalink)
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MAJOR KUDOS to the OP! This has turned out to be one incredible thread...a little bit of conspiracy...a little bit of religion, some excellent back and forth...now can we have BA & Extremo sent to itheir own sub forum and watch em fight?

(My thoughts since everyone else got to air them)
They say Word of Mouth is the strongest form of advertisement...they say 1 bad review spreads a wild fire to at least 7 others which in turn could kill a company and its reputation...If something is not as advertised...good luck getting past your 2nd year of business.

The whole decision being made not to purchase a NS board based on a persons shirt....I agree with the statement that while at work..we absolutely represent our company by the way we handle ourselves however, I don't agree with the way that people have become SOOO ridiculously touchy! It goes back to the Bu//$#!+ with Chik Fil A...the founder himself has a PERSONAL belief that same sex marriage is wrong...and yet the whole gay community wants to boycott AMAZING chicken sandwiches and compromise tens of thousands jobs because he has his PERSONAL beliefs...

This forum is fantastic...I love everyone's feed back and I enjoy reading all the threads on How To, I love seeing peoples home videos, I love reading about all the new lines dropping each year, This forum definitely is doing what it was created to do...get a community with a common interest together. (This post makes me think about one of my original posts, "Why is Burton so hated here?" that fire was burning for 20 pages )
HAPPY POSTING ALL!
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:33 AM   #107 (permalink)
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WAIT! One more thought....

I purchased my NS based on graphics ;-P I happen to love the graphics of Neversummer...their logo is pretty sick, and at the same time they look like a high end piece of brilliance....but I'm a simple guy..I also love the Jones Carbon and the Arbors with the plain wood look...Keep all that cartoonish sh*t away from me, I am a fan of Symmetry and timeless looks...not the hot fad of the moment
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:33 AM   #108 (permalink)
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This whole discussion has been built around the words "neversummer shoved down your throat". First SW tried to add in some kind of causal chain that im implying an orchestrated bias. When i showed you its not the case, but the forums, now youre trying to argue that secretly by the dint of posting it on a thread (a thread referring to the forums neversummer bias) that it was an easy insinuation to arrive at. Its not. Youre making it up. I told you what i said, ive clarified it. Twisting what i said to suit your own narrative is a way to DEFLECT the point, (as is asking me to provide evidence for a point i never in fact made). To be honest, the further this is going, the more uncomfortable its getting. You asked (and apparently welcome) reasonable debate on the matter, but ive been nothing but reasonable and yet keep having you guys try and put words in my mouth or make me say something so you can dismiss the point.

Now lets get to the next point of actual bias in the very act of tying yourselves so closely to Neversummer:

There is going to be a perceptual problem of serious bias in tying yourselves so directly with neversummer. Whether or not you think you wont personally be biased, is by the by. The proof is in the eating. Having a section of the forums completely devoted to one brand pretty much makes the case in itself to be honest, but its a cheap shot... fair... but cheap.

Your issue is how to address this in a rational, calm and reflective manner. Instead youre "orchestrating" (jsut so we're clear, this is a parodic use of the term), some kind of some kind of siege mentality. And lashing out because i had the temerity to not agree with you and was careful to articulate my points rationally and without abuse (i believe those were the terms of the discussion you guys set out in the thread announcing this?). Instead SW first built a straw man to argue against and then spent most of his post calling people who disagree with him a bunch of names. Now you, realising maybe that im right, and that i said no such thing, are trying to weedle back in this argument with some kind of Mrs Doyle line of argument: "come on, admit it! go on go on go on!"

Just accept theres an issue here. Maybe, i dunno, follow my lead and make an argument about bias and the general incapacity for the lack of bias, and offer assurances that you guys will do your best to make it fair and open and go out of your ways to not make this a massive defining feature of the site (which youve already shown isnt the case by the way with a) the announcement, b) the section on neversummer, (cf, the point on WHY people are looking to demo neversummer boards just as an FYI) and c) the mad defensiveness that anyone could even claim that this site had a long and established connection with neversummer... er... something about boards being designed and built in consultation with people on this site... from the very blurb on the announcement. Try not to get so worked up because i disagree that tying yourself into one brand somehow helps you prove your neutrality and impartiality.

I should stress, i choose my words very carefully, so before you leap on that last sentence again, you might want to re-read it. It doesnt mean that youll become more biased, it means it doesnt help your case that youll somehow become any less biased.

As for whether youll become MORE biased, i leave that in the hands of time and your ability to actually slag off the boards you were consulted about in the design process. I also expect Blauvelt to trash ride and complain that his berzerker is POS.

Really though, am i going mad? Is there none of you that actually grasps what im saying here and can articulate a balanced and thoughtful awareness of the issues this throws up in relation to the sites overriding objective (i assume) as a source of unbiased and fair information? Is no one capable of addressing this and acknowledging the complications whilst also articulating a rational and sound way of dealing with the nuance of the overriding issue? Im not being a jerk here. Theres an issue. The sites always been a bit neversummer intensive... as i say, i didnt start the thread, i contributed to it on page 9. And it was 9 pages of people saying "noooo! dont be silly!" You helped them design new boards, this has been a long standing relationship. Only now its formalized and much more in the open. Of course theres an issue. Of course you should have to defend against potential bias. Of course you should have to explain why and how its not going to impact your neutrality. Of course Neversummer should attempt to show they have no impact and will not set conditions.

And of course the people reading those reviews should be allowed to read them with a much sharper and more cynical eye than we might have a year ago when the relationship was a little more opaque. Its not a wild point. Its pretty humdrum to be honest.

If suddenly you guys were promoting Nitro thatd be fine. No one would bat an eyelid, in fact itd help offset a lot of the neversummer hype on these forums *lets not pretend your opinion is going to carry the same weight as joe blogs after all). Indeed you were promoting any other brand at all this wouldnt even be an issue. And i promise you this isnt hating on neversummer. I like their boards. But its the very brand thats had the most connections to this site in the last three or four years and its the very brand that seems to get the most noise on these forums. Now you have 15 or so of the loudest people on the site ready to talk all about neversummer. Come on now? Surely you can see that for a site professing its absolute neutrality, this doesnt help your case much. Whether it hurts it is to be decided, but its not helping it.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:01 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ippy View Post
This whole discussion has been built around the words "neversummer shoved down your throat". First SW tried to add in some kind of causal chain that im implying an orchestrated bias. When i showed you its not the case, but the forums, now youre trying to argue that secretly by the dint of posting it on a thread (a thread referring to the forums neversummer bias) that it was an easy insinuation to arrive at. Its not. Youre making it up. I told you what i said, ive clarified it. Twisting what i said to suit your own narrative is a way to DEFLECT the point, (as is asking me to provide evidence for a point i never in fact made). To be honest, the further this is going, the more uncomfortable its getting. You asked (and apparently welcome) reasonable debate on the matter, but ive been nothing but reasonable and yet keep having you guys try and put words in my mouth or make me say something so you can dismiss the point.

Now lets get to the next point of actual bias in the very act of tying yourselves so closely to Neversummer:

There is going to be a perceptual problem of serious bias in tying yourselves so directly with neversummer. Whether or not you think you wont personally be biased, is by the by. The proof is in the eating. Having a section of the forums completely devoted to one brand pretty much makes the case in itself to be honest, but its a cheap shot... fair... but cheap.

Your issue is how to address this in a rational, calm and reflective manner. Instead youre "orchestrating" (jsut so we're clear, this is a parodic use of the term), some kind of some kind of siege mentality. And lashing out because i had the temerity to not agree with you and was careful to articulate my points rationally and without abuse (i believe those were the terms of the discussion you guys set out in the thread announcing this?). Instead SW first built a straw man to argue against and then spent most of his post calling people who disagree with him a bunch of names. Now you, realising maybe that im right, and that i said no such thing, are trying to weedle back in this argument with some kind of Mrs Doyle line of argument: "come on, admit it! go on go on go on!"

Just accept theres an issue here. Maybe, i dunno, follow my lead and make an argument about bias and the general incapacity for the lack of bias, and offer assurances that you guys will do your best to make it fair and open and go out of your ways to not make this a massive defining feature of the site (which youve already shown isnt the case by the way with a) the announcement, b) the section on neversummer, (cf, the point on WHY people are looking to demo neversummer boards just as an FYI) and c) the mad defensiveness that anyone could even claim that this site had a long and established connection with neversummer... er... something about boards being designed and built in consultation with people on this site... from the very blurb on the announcement. Try not to get so worked up because i disagree that tying yourself into one brand somehow helps you prove your neutrality and impartiality.

I should stress, i choose my words very carefully, so before you leap on that last sentence again, you might want to re-read it. It doesnt mean that youll become more biased, it means it doesnt help your case that youll somehow become any less biased.

As for whether youll become MORE biased, i leave that in the hands of time and your ability to actually slag off the boards you were consulted about in the design process. I also expect Blauvelt to trash ride and complain that his berzerker is POS.

Really though, am i going mad? Is there none of you that actually grasps what im saying here and can articulate a balanced and thoughtful awareness of the issues this throws up in relation to the sites overriding objective (i assume) as a source of unbiased and fair information? Is no one capable of addressing this and acknowledging the complications whilst also articulating a rational and sound way of dealing with the nuance of the overriding issue? Im not being a jerk here. Theres an issue. The sites always been a bit neversummer intensive... as i say, i didnt start the thread, i contributed to it on page 9. And it was 9 pages of people saying "noooo! dont be silly!" You helped them design new boards, this has been a long standing relationship. Only now its formalized and much more in the open. Of course theres an issue. Of course you should have to defend against potential bias. Of course you should have to explain why and how its not going to impact your neutrality. Of course Neversummer should attempt to show they have no impact and will not set conditions.

And of course the people reading those reviews should be allowed to read them with a much sharper and more cynical eye than we might have a year ago when the relationship was a little more opaque. Its not a wild point. Its pretty humdrum to be honest.

If suddenly you guys were promoting Nitro thatd be fine. No one would bat an eyelid, in fact itd help offset a lot of the neversummer hype on these forums *lets not pretend your opinion is going to carry the same weight as joe blogs after all). Indeed you were promoting any other brand at all this wouldnt even be an issue. And i promise you this isnt hating on neversummer. I like their boards. But its the very brand thats had the most connections to this site in the last three or four years and its the very brand that seems to get the most noise on these forums. Now you have 15 or so of the loudest people on the site ready to talk all about neversummer. Come on now? Surely you can see that for a site professing its absolute neutrality, this doesnt help your case much. Whether it hurts it is to be decided, but its not helping it.
You raise a lot of legitimate concerns, and if I were coming in here as a part time member, or the casual lurker, I'd share them as well. But don't think these concerns weren't already considered throughout the conception of this 'design team' idea. Before you make blanket assumptions about the individuals on the team, why don't you wait for our reviews and determine how legitimate each of our opinions are on a case by case basis. Who knows, maybe I'll think one of my fellow team members is completely bullshitting too. I find it a little offensive that without knowing any of us you're assuming each of our opinions are going to be influenced by a blind allegiance to the brand. If you're on the same board that I'm reviewing I welcome your opinion in my discussion thread. If you think I'm bullshitting call me out. NS is looking for honesty. They've had their brand bashed for several different reasons and instead of whining about it they've listened to what people want out of them and improved upon it.

Last edited by Extremo; 01-31-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:04 AM   #110 (permalink)
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I just want to say that Never Summer makes excellent boards!!!

This is also a Fact outside the forum
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