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Old 01-31-2013, 06:10 PM   #171 (permalink)
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3) Reviews to this forum are completely worthless, period. One man's junk is another man's treasure. There are infinite variables to each and every persons thoughts on a specific peace of equipment. Reviews (or feedback) to a company alone is/can be beneficial, thus part of the role of the "Design Team".

4) Kind of unrelated to the actual topic at hand, but internet forums have just gotten out of hand.
3) So how are riders supposed to decide what boards to buy? Specs alone? Magazine tests (because they're so objective!!!!)?

4) Have just? They've always been out of hand, nothing new!

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As to who reviews cater too i will respectfully disagree. In my thought, an experienced rider will not rely on a review to make a purchasing decisions. A casual snowboarder doing their research is going to hold a review to a much higher regard. If i had to take a bet i would say that reviews get much more
traffic from the casual rider who doesn't have an account and who found the review by typing into google.
I am a 21 year veteran rider who used to compete, and I still make decisions with help from forum reviews. In fact I hold these in much higher regard than most other sources of information. As long as you read the reviews carefully, knowing who wrote them, what they were riding on, what their experience level is... Reviews ARE valuable.

Here's an "initial thoughts" review I did on a new board I bought. Not a full review but I even measured the boards and posted specs, what type of snow I was on, pros, cons, etc. http://www.snowboardingforum.com/boa...-thoughts.html

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I'm sure most people on internet forums fall into the "casual rider" category who enjoy talking gear to scratch their itch. Again, nothing wrong with that at all, i mean hell that why we all come here isn't it , too geek out a bit! And there is nothing wrong with typing into goolge for a review, we all do it for various things!
I think we actually have a fairly wide range here. Lots and lots of first timers or nearly first timers. Some 10 day a year people, and a good dose of 50 day a year people too...

I think we all know a review is subjective, but if you've narrowed down your choices to a couple boards based on specs alone, then look for reviews as the potential decision maker, I think that's just healthy shopping.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:18 PM   #172 (permalink)
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Hey if reviews work for you than good! It sounds like you know what you're doing when reading them. I would guess a majority of people don't however.
Too me, starting out in any hobby/sport you take your lumps buying gear, that's how you find out what you like or dislike. Sure reading reviews may help that first time buyer, but they won't know what they want till they actually get out there.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:24 PM   #173 (permalink)
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Hey if reviews work for you than good! It sounds like you know what you're doing when reading them. I would guess a majority of people don't however.
Too me, starting out in any hobby/sport you take your lumps buying gear, that's how you find out what you like or dislike. Sure reading reviews may help that first time buyer, but they won't know what they want till they actually get out there.
Agreed... Maybe we need a thread on here about how to read reviews with a grain of salt?!?

If you took every review literally we'd all be on Lib Tech T.Rice Pros...

I think the thing is we can't force the consumer to use common sense, but we can try to put our subjective opinions out there and let people have at it!
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:46 PM   #174 (permalink)
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Agreed... Maybe we need a thread on here about how to read reviews with a grain of salt?!?

If you took every review literally we'd all be on Lib Tech T.Rice Pros...

I think the thing is we can't force the consumer to use common sense, but we can try to put our subjective opinions out there and let people have at it!

I wish I would of taken a grain of salt instead of a pound of weed. Next time I dont give a damn what reviewers here or anywhere say. I'm getting the stiffest, dampest damn NS board they make. Then bitch that its too stiff and doesnt have enough pop
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:20 PM   #175 (permalink)
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So, if another brand like Burton or Union (since they already have a presence on these boards) approached VS and wanted to do the exact same thing -- dedicated sub-forum, hand picked reviewers, etc -- would that be allowed or encouraged?
Why not? In actuality, that would be awesome. You'd have the popular brands pre-filtered for you. There are some section this forum could condense or even get rid of in my opinion to make room.

Or have a review section with sub-sections for brand specific ones.


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Old 01-31-2013, 08:24 PM   #176 (permalink)
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Why not? In actuality, that would be awesome. You'd have the popular brands pre-filtered for you. There are some section this forum could condense or even get rid of in my opinion to make room.

Or have a review section with sub-sections for brand specific ones.


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That would be an excellent idea...here that Wolf!?
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:43 PM   #177 (permalink)
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You're putting words in MY mouth now Ippy. I didn't say you were accusing us of anything. But when you make the assertions that you do in a debate about the design team, you INSINUATE that the design team members are acting in a manner that is highly biased. Yes, of course there will be some bias, but it's not as crazy as you think. A number of us have already told you guys numerous times that the possible bias is offset by these facts:
...
And since you keep ignoring fact 1... Let me reiterate that NS is not the only product that I have access to for free. So tell me again how I can possibly be biased? Same goes for others on this team. Triple8, how can he possibly be biased just from this design team subject? He BOUGHT many NS boards prior to this. If he's biased, it's from making purchases out if his own pocket.

Another fact you ignored... This forum had plenty NS hype long before the design team that started with Wolf and Myself. You complain now because they included more members? Why? What's the point?

And please, stop insulting my intelligence. You've become quite condescending. No need for that nonsense.
Please keep the personal attacks out of it, you started off okay, but as it went on it started getting a touch personal. Ive only singled out specific people (yourself and snowolf) when you have made a claim against me i found to be incorrect (or abusive). Ive not descended into personal attacks, and have written a great deal already on the matter which would be opportunity enough to "rant" or make personal attacks. Perhaps we should attack the points and not the person? Maybe you'll consider this 'condescending' as well, but i dont see how asking for more rational discussion, and less bickering and name calling is "condescending". Lets just attack the points and not the assumed character of the people making them. Agreed?

And in that spirit, let me attack this one point:

You keep suggesting that im ignoring the point that you guys get hook ups from other brands. But let me be very clear on this.

I have not sad at any point that the people involved in this design team will be biased. This is not my point. Ive been very careful in fact to not say this. I also have great fondness for killclimbz for the work he does in his own free time to educate people on backcountry safety, so I would never call his integrity into question.

But since youre asking me directly, honestly, i dont think you can. I however AWAIT to be proven wrong. This is a very important distinction. I dont think you can be unbiased whilst being offered hookups and being involved in teh design and manufature of a board. BUT I am willing to be proven wrong.

But this wont be done by you TELLING me before hand that you're unbiased, it will be instead be demonstrated by your future actions fully acknowledging and recognising the now extremely close ties between this website and Neversummer. It will be done by you offering similar levels of exposure to other brands and recognising where appropriate that other labels have similar if not better rides for what the [x ride] is trying to deliver.
As i say, you all have your own biases you bring to a ride. We all do. I made the point in the first post of this whole discussion and in fact themed the entire post around this point. But those biases should mean that you're not all going to love R+C. So this will hopefully be reflected in the reviews. So again, this will be one more criteria that will demonstrate fairly your capacity for neutrality.

However, due to the fact that i dont make my living as a fortune teller, i will hold back before i start throwing out any accusation of *personal* bias (nor do i want to put myself in a position where id have to trawl through your post history for examples of bias. Life is too short already).
Thus, the attempt to make me say that you *personally* are biased is a straw man. And so he claim that im ignoring the counter that you get hooked up by other brands is nothing but evasion. Its not the point ive made. Its the point you've both trying to get me to make, though. I should also say, i get hooked up too. I dont think it affects my ability to be neutral and balanced. But, i dont really get to make the judgement on my own neutrality at the end of the day. I can only demonstrate it in what i write and learn from the feedback i receive on it.

Now lets get to the meat of the point i have made. I really think ive said what i need to say here, but for the sake of clarity:

This site has a perception of being tied in with neversummer a little too close. It has led to your own forum users asking why neversummer seem to be getting so much exposure on this site.

Lets clarify this first before you jump in and also directly address the second accusation that im ignoring the hype around the brand from the past.

Im not saying that this means you and neversummer are in collusion to sell products. Once again ive been rather deliberate in avoiding the causal chain here. I understand how hype works. Its an organic process. Theres no causal chain here because i wouldnt even know where to begin. Its chicken/egg. Is the neversummer momentum on this site and the proliferation of threads talking about or referencing neversummer (including this one) caused by your close ties over the past few years, or are the close ties a product of the exposure you guys have given to neversummer?

EL has Johan over there making lots of posts, and it leads to a warm fuzzy relationship between those cats making the place C3 friendly. It doesnt mean chappy and Johan coordinated it all though to hype up c3 and dupe the rubes by making them promote capita. Its an organic process and ANY OTHER BRAND IN THE WORLD can start talking about their products and foster close ties with message boards. It just so happens though that EL is very C3 friendly, just as this site is very NS friendly.

The causal chain isnt explicated SPECIFICALLY because im in no position to depict it. So again, this isnt a line of response you want to pursue against me. Instead the point is the much less aggressive one that you do have a relationship. Your forums give a lot of exposure to neversummer. And your fellow forum users are asking why it is?

Indeed, you both concede the point and justify it as just people really liking the boards recommended them and in turn want to pass on the "stoke" by recommending those boards to others... swings/roundabouts, perhaps?

We are both saying much the same thing. This board gives a LOT of exposure to neversummer. The fostering of even closer ties to what many people already perceive as a rather close relationship does not in any way help your claims AS A SITE (not as individuals) to neutrality and impartiality. Its something youre going to have to convince people on.

finally, just on a point of order here, you realise that no ones saying youre ADVERTISING neversummer. The issue is precisely the already over exposure of the brand on this site, with the addition of new ties leading to EVEN MORE exposure for neversummer. It genuinely jeapordizes the sites credibility as a source of impartial and neutral information. NOT BECAUSE YOU are impartial, but because the information on this site skews towards Neversummer.
As i said in the very first post (and i will repeat because it shows ive remained thoroughly consistent throughout), if people want to know about how a neversummer rides, they should demo it for themselves. But the reason they might be looking for neversummer demo days is that they probably came to this site and read a lot of posts hyping neversummer. Chicken and egg, swings and roundabouts. Whatever the causal chain, it is a problem for your neaturality as a SITE that youre now so heavily tied in with the brand that you have a longstanding history with. Whatever you think, you have to at least accept this doesnt exactly help your claims to neutrality and objectivity.

Ill tell you what, i spent too much time on this last night and far too much time writing this on not enough sleep this morning so ill probably step back and leave your claims unmolested. But do try and get what im ACTUALLY saying before you try reading between the lines and attributing points i havent made due to IMPLICATIONS (that arent there). Ive said it, ive clarified it. Several times in fact. These arent short posts after all. And Ive remained thoroughly consistent throughout. Ive also stuck to the points, directly addressed your claims, and not attacked anyone in the process. I cant honestly be more genuine in my desire for open discussion on the VERY TOPIC of this thread. (though it might be a little more garbled due to only getting a few hours sleep).
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:04 PM   #178 (permalink)
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Wow, this thread blew up.

Everyone needs to relax, these are snowboards we are talking about not nuclear missiles.

For what its worth I intend to be as honest as I can and as objective as I can.

No review or reviewer can claim total objectivity since that is just not a human trait.

In my first proto review I gave glowing praise for the board as well as pointing out its weak points.

At that point I had 0 connections with NS and was just talking as a rider who bought (at full price) a board that suited his needs.

If I like any of the new boards as much will I be called out as biased if I praise them in the same way?

As many have said take reviews with a grain of salt, demo if possible then (wo) man up and make your choice.

I personally would welcome similar projects from other brands and think it would be great for the forum and riders trying to choose a board. The more information you can gather before you buy the better.

Rome, Burton, Arbor, Nitro, Flow I am available to test your products.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:12 PM   #179 (permalink)
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I personally would welcome similar projects from other brands and think it would be great for the forum and riders trying to choose a board. The more information you can gather before you buy the better.

Rome, Burton, Arbor, Nitro, Flow I am available to test your products.
QFT.

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Old 01-31-2013, 09:20 PM   #180 (permalink)
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Wheres BA????
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