To wear or not to wear a Helm? - Page 21 - Snowboarding Forum

ShadowCloud04 · 03-16-2013, 09:31 AM

I always where mine park or not. It makes me feel comfortable going outside of my normal range of things I try. Now when not hitting park you may think what can happen well this year my 3 friends and I went on a boarding trip. 3 of us hit park and the other guy would just cruise and bomb a couple hills. He was pretty experienced with handling speed, but one time he just caught an edge and had to go to the hospital. He had broken his collar bone and gotten a concussion. Ya the collar bone thing would of happened but if he had worn a helmet then when the ski patrol asked him where he lived he would probably actually be able to answer. But overall it's a choice.

behi · 03-17-2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowolf

Lastly, don`t kid yourself about helmets. Too many people think of these things as some sort of magic talisman that makes you invincible and as a bonus wards off evil. Most helmets are rated for under 15 MPH and an impact more than that makes the helmet increasingly ineffective. If you are riding at 25 MPH, which is really slow for any intermediate rider, and you slam your head to the ice or hit a tree, you are getting a concussion helmet or not.

If you hit a solid object with your head at 35mph, you are likely dead - helmet or not. But, if you crash on an icy slope, the helmet doesn't have to absorb your movement speed, it primarily has to absorb the fall component. I.e. if your head falls 2m (you topple over), it accelerates to 14mph.

Quote:

The concussion is caused by the sudden stop and the brain slamming into the skull. This still happens with a helmet.

Not really. The helmet is designed to cushion the 'sudden stop' - make it not so sudden - and absorb impact energy.

Excerpt from an old Ski Canada Magazine article, "The Science Behind Helmets":

An insight as to why this study found a difference in patterns of death as a function of helmet utilization can be found in the following study. A simulation using a 50th percentile male anthropometric device (Scher, Richards and Carhart, 2005) was done of a snowboarder going 30 kph, catching an edge and falling headfirst onto soft snow, icy snow and a fixed object (a 28-cm upright wooden post). This simulation was done to assess the effect of wearing a helmet or not under the three different impact conditions. The helmet in question met the requirements of ASTM F2040. [...] This study found that if the impact is onto a soft-snow surface, both the measured g-loads (under 100 g) and the computed HIC values (less than 220) are well within acceptable limits regardless of whether or not a helmet is used. When the impact was onto simulated hard, icy snow, the helmet reduced the average measured g-load from 329 to 162, and the HIC value from 2,235 to 965. When the impact was against the fixed object, the helmet reduced the values from 696 to 333, and the HIC from 12,185 to 3,299.

The study concluded that under the circumstances of impact with soft snow, the use or non-use of the helmet had no significant effect. In the matter of the impact with a solid fixed object resembling a tree, while the use of a helmet was associated with a significant reduction in both the g-load and the HIC, the likely outcome remained that of a fatal injury— with or without the use of a helmet. With an impact on icy snow, the use of a helmet could be the difference between a significant head injury (possibly life-threatening) and a minor head injury.

There is a huge difference between helmets, even if they are certified. The standards allow something like 250g - 300g deceleration. Above 100g, chances are you will get a concussion. Above 300g, chances are you will have fractured head.

There is a large number number of studies that show that helmets do reduce head injuries for snowboarders. A lot of people seem to think they will perform miracles - which they clearly don't.

While I do wear a helmet for boarding (I've hit my head a few times in soft snow, fortunately never on hard pack - knock on wood), I don't use a bicycle helmet. IMHO, there isn't enough evidence that bicycle helmets do something useful.

wernersl · 03-17-2013, 12:48 PM

Hey some helmets on some people (myself included) look gay as fuck! Cant stand the look of that piece of shit on my head. Makes my head sweat and its harder to hear what is around me.

BUT...Ive gotten so used to it that I would feel really weird without it. In fact...takes me longer to get the beanie/goggle combo comfortable for the ride...only to have it blow off my head screaming down a double black. I'm done with NOT wearing helmets.

I'm a bigger dude so the thing really does look like shit on my head, but I don't really care. What it does do is deflect branches, other peoples boards if I eat shit in front of them or get taken out by an elitist skier.

So...I will always have mine, and as bad as it looks, have never heard anyone say...whoa...that looks gay as fuck. Then again I cant really hear outta that thing very well. Enjoy.

wernersl · 03-17-2013, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowolf

So many insults....why?

Here is the deal with this continual argument. The problem here is the preaching and the name calling. Some in the pro helmet camp take on an almost evangelic fervor about it that is just going to piss people off. It`s like the new born again Christian or new non smoker who seems to be on some mission to save the world. In every one of these threads that pop up over and over and over again, year after year after year after year, its always the same. The pro helmet evangilist resorts to calling everyone else dumb, stupid, idiot, moron, etc. This is NOT how you are going to win anyone over. In all of these arguments over the years I have not seen a case wear a non helmet person has called the helmet advocate names. This is just like the God freaks who get nasty and mean when the atheist does not agree with them on the subject of religion.

Being in the profession of snowsports, we talk a lot about this issue and quite frankly, almost everyone is sick and tired of the helmet preachers who really need to get over themselves and just stop it; its fucking annoying as hell. I don't think there is a single person out there that doesn't get the benefits of helmet use but this constant barrage of helmet, helmet, helmet, helmet gets fucking old. What the helmet evangelist doesn't seem to get is that by proselytizing non stop, they are actually creating Resistance to helmet use in the same way that in many cases, nagging a smoker to quit will actually make them more determined not to.

Think about it. Look at this thread as an example. In the 5 years of admining this forum, I cannot remember ever seeing a thread started by someone who doesn't wear a helmet, preaching the evils of helmet use or making fun of people wearing helmets. On the other hand we have on average 2 or 3 of these "wear your helmet" threads a year. After awhile it just gets fucking old.

What also gets old is the repeated anecdotal stories about how a helmet saved this person`s life or prevented that person`s concussion or death. Fact of the matter is that even without helmet use, skiing and riding is actually statistically a very safe sport. You are hundreds of times more likely to receive a head injury in the car crash on the way to or from the mountain.

If a person does not want to wear a helmet, it is no one else`s business and it is not anyone`s place to be preaching about it. As an adult, capable of my own risk assessment I can determine for myself whether I choose to wear or not wear a helmet and I don't need some do gooder acting like my personal nanny. Sorry, but the proselytizing is a form of butting into other people`s business and it is both intrusive and rude.

That is why people get testy over this constant preaching. We all get it. We all "should" be wearing a helmet. If we are not already doing so it is not because the helmet evangelists hasn't spread the good news; its because we made a choice not to and the preaching is only going to turn people off.

I wear a helmet sometimes bu to be honest, I don't more than I do. Have I taken some nasty falls? Yep. Have I hit my head? Very rarely and in fact I hit my head way more with a helmet on. Well, I used to until I switched to the lighter weight, lower profile Capix and Sandbox helmet. I find the standard egg head helmets have a big enough profile that I hit more shit with my head because of the helmet.

Lastly, don`t kid yourself about helmets. Too many people think of these things as some sort of magic talisman that makes you invincible and as a bonus wards off evil. Most helmets are rated for under 15 MPH and an impact more than that makes the helmet increasingly ineffective. If you are riding at 25 MPH, which is really slow for any intermediate rider, and you slam your head to the ice or hit a tree, you are getting a concussion helmet or not. The concussion is caused by the sudden stop and the brain slamming into the skull. This still happens with a helmet. The helmet is designed to protect the surface of the head from impact and they are very effective for that. Again, not discouraging helmet use, just reminding folks of facts. Too often I see people ride irresponsibly because the helmet gives them an inflated sense of security and as a result, do things that puts them in needless peril and it is because they are wearing the helmet that think they can do anything without consequence.

At any rate, carry on but lets cut the name calling and keep it civil.

Yes the disrespect and name calling here is uncalled for and bullshit. As for people preaching...they can fuck off. As I have said...I wear one. Looks gay, but who cares. Do I think you or anyone else should? Dont really care. Unless of course you are part of my family, then I might have something to say about it. Otherwise...rather you wouldnt because watching people on the board of shame gives me a chuckle. No matter the injury, and I laugh a little because, hey, it wasnt me this time!

For the stories...dont care either way. You know, some people even make those up. Hell even statistics are 46% bullshit, but sometimes a good reference point.

Vinh · 03-17-2013, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by behi

While I do wear a helmet for boarding (I've hit my head a few times in soft snow, fortunately never on hard pack - knock on wood), I don't use a bicycle helmet. IMHO, there isn't enough evidence that bicycle helmets do something useful.

There might not be enough evidence, but I saw this while I was watching Discovery channel about James Cracknell, who got fucked up while doing an attempt do cycle, swim, run and row from LA to NY in 16 days. This is from wikipedia:

"On 20 July 2010, Cracknell was hit from behind by a petrol tanker whilst cycling during an attempt to cycle, row, run and swim from Los Angeles to New York within 16 days. The accident happened at around 5.30am on a quiet stretch of road outside Winslow, Arizona. He has attributed his survival to the fact he was wearing a cycle helmet at the time, which was "shorn in two". In the crash he suffered a contre-coup injury to the frontal lobes of his brain. He was "fully kitted out" by sponsors including the manufacturer of his helmet. He is now back at home with his family, although his recovery may never be complete. In 2012 Cracknell and his wife wrote Touching Distance about his life before and after his brain injury, which has left him with epilepsy and a changed personality (including a short temper)."

I don't use a cycling helmet myself, probably because I got my own car and almost never take a bike out anymore. But even if so, I wouldn't really use a helmet anyway. For snowboarding I do use my helmet, because I feel a bit safer with it and it has speakers in it for music hehe.

glaucon · 03-17-2013, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowolf

Fact of the matter is that even without helmet use, skiing and riding is actually statistically a very safe sport. You are hundreds of times more likely to receive a head injury in the car crash on the way to or from the mountain.

Snowolf, I think your basic point is that people shouldn't be mean, and I agree with that. But by the same token, the rhetoric on both sides should be fair. The part of your post quoted above I think is irresponsible. It is a completely unsubstantiated claim and has no basis in fact (unless you want to point to surveys or actual facts). Perhaps you are looking at statistics of overall numbers of accidents instead of per capita stats, as obviously a greater number of people drive cars per day than snowboard.

I don't have statistics, but speaking from my own experience, I know that head injuries resulting from snowboarding accidents are many times more likely than driving. I only started wearing a helmet about 8 years ago, less than half of my riding career. When I rode without a helmet, I routinely hit my head on the ground (most of my time was on the ice coast). I never got a concussion (that I know of), but I would often get insane headaches. This would happen at least once every 5 days of riding. My day was over when the headache became unbearable. My brother did get a concussion while snowboarding (along with a broken collar bone and shoulder), but he was never in a car accident. I also never hit my head when I was driving in nearly 20 years nor do I think it very likely.

I've seen this "driving is more dangerous than snowboarding" argument on here a number of times. I really think we need to dispel ourselves of this ridiculous notion in order to more fairly assess the actual risks. It's just not true.

But as to the merits of this thread, as with all internet bickering, one side inflates the arguments of the other, the other responds with insults and then everyone is making comparisons to Hitler and born again christians. I've seen it a hundred times.

From what I can tell, the two sides essentially come down to:

Anti-helmets: Adults are generally smart enough to appreciate the risks in the things they do and have the right to deny reasonable precautions despite their proven efficacy.

Pro-helmets: Helmets are demonstrably safer, non-obtrusive, and give me the warm fuzzies. I don't understand why someone would purposely put themselves at additional risk by not wearing one, but at the same time I desperately want everyone on the mountain to wear one because then I'll feel like less of a dork.

Maybe we can all agree on this, or something close, and move on.

**Donutz** · 03-17-2013, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glaucon

everyone is making comparisons to Hitler and born again christians. I've seen it a hundred times.

And the Hitler Proposition says that once Hitler is invoked in any debate, no further progress is possible.

**Donutz** · 03-17-2013, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glaucon

Pro-helmets: Helmets are demonstrably safer, non-obtrusive, and give me the warm fuzzies. I don't understand why someone would purposely put themselves at additional risk by not wearing one, but at the same time I desperately want everyone on the mountain to wear one because then I'll feel like less of a dork.

Fail. First you accuse other people of creating straw persons, then you create one. As eastside pointed out, and as I pointed out, we don't give a flying fuck whether or not someone wears a helmet. We also don't care if they do or do not wear gloves, a tutu, a yeti costume, bat wings, or someone else's skin. The argument comes from someone making a statement or statements that we consider to be either untrue, illogical, a non sequitur, or downright moronic. Whether the argument is about helmets, weather, politics, religion, bindings, cars, pets, or girlfriends, no one has a right to expect to make a statement and demand that no one else respond. This is a discussion forum, not a speech forum.

You called snowolf on the car injury statement not because you are religious about statistics, or because you are religious about cars, or a recently converted car faithful -- you called it because he made a statement that you considered to be wrong and a poor reason for taking a particular stance. If you're going to play the objective outsider, then please extend everyone the same courtesy.

An objective version of the above would have read something like "Pro-helmets: If you want to not wear a helmet that's your right, but if you're going to try to rationalize the decision with nonsense arguments, I'm going to call you on it."

glaucon · 03-17-2013, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donutz

Fail. First you accuse other people of creating straw persons, then you create one. As eastside pointed out, and as I pointed out, we don't give a flying fuck whether or not someone wears a helmet. We also don't care if they do or do not wear gloves, a tutu, a yeti costume, bat wings, or someone else's skin. The argument comes from someone making a statement or statements that we consider to be either untrue, illogical, a non sequitur, or downright moronic. Whether the argument is about helmets, weather, politics, religion, bindings, cars, pets, or girlfriends, no one has a right to expect to make a statement and demand that no one else respond. This is a discussion forum, not a speech forum.

You called snowolf on the car injury statement not because you are religious about statistics, or because you are religious about cars, or a recently converted car faithful -- you called it because he made a statement that you considered to be wrong and a poor reason for taking a particular stance. If you're going to play the objective outsider, then please extend everyone the same courtesy.

Yeah, you're right. I did mischaracterize the pro-helmets group. I did it that way because I fall into that group and in trying to be fair I was a little self-deprecating and tried to be partially funny, but it didn't come off that way. I agree with everything you say.

tj_ras · 03-17-2013, 03:06 PM

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I seen you around for a long long time, ya
I really remembered you when you drink my wine

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I seen you walkin' down in Chinatown
I called you but you could not look around

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I bring my money to the welfare line
I see you standing in it every time

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

The color of your skin don't matter to me
As long as we can live in harmony

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I'd kinda like to be the President
So I can show you how your money's spent

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

Sometimes I don't speak right
But yet I know what I'm talking about

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I know you're workin' for the CIA
They wouldn't have you in the Ma-fi-a

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends...

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-16-2013, 09:31 AM	#201 (permalink)
ShadowCloud04 Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 38	I always where mine park or not. It makes me feel comfortable going outside of my normal range of things I try. Now when not hitting park you may think what can happen well this year my 3 friends and I went on a boarding trip. 3 of us hit park and the other guy would just cruise and bomb a couple hills. He was pretty experienced with handling speed, but one time he just caught an edge and had to go to the hospital. He had broken his collar bone and gotten a concussion. Ya the collar bone thing would of happened but if he had worn a helmet then when the ski patrol asked him where he lived he would probably actually be able to answer. But overall it's a choice.

03-17-2013, 03:06 PM	#210 (permalink)
tj_ras -LIFETIME MEMBER- Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 502	Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends I seen you around for a long long time, ya I really remembered you when you drink my wine Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends I seen you walkin' down in Chinatown I called you but you could not look around Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends I bring my money to the welfare line I see you standing in it every time Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends The color of your skin don't matter to me As long as we can live in harmony Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends I'd kinda like to be the President So I can show you how your money's spent Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Sometimes I don't speak right But yet I know what I'm talking about Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends I know you're workin' for the CIA They wouldn't have you in the Ma-fi-a Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends Why can't we be friends...