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To wear or not to wear a Helm?

58K views 333 replies 150 participants last post by  snowyc 
#1 ·
Just interested in freestyle riders thoughts on using helmets. I'm a pure freerider who hasn't had much experience with jumping/jibbing other than backcountry kickers into deeeeep pow, so I never wore a helmet, even though my mom bought me one about 12 years ago, lol. Do you guys bring your helmets along just for riding 'park' or no helmet use? I did not like the feel of a helmet on my head when I tried it way back in the day. Plus, the helmet was noticeably colder! Feel like I need to yell FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOM from the top of my lungs like William Wallace when I was wearing one. However, I do know that park riding is more deadly to your lightbulb...
I should note that despite getting into more freestyle oriented riding this winter, if it snows, I'll be riding pow, not in the park :p
Wanna protect my head while in the park, but don't exactly wanna lug a helmet around with me on my pack, already enough crap in there!

My question is, what are your thoughts on helmet use in respect to freestyle riding.
 
#236 ·
I completely disagree. I am a commercial driver and I typically put 1500-2000 miles in a week on the company vehicle. This does not include the miles I put on my personal vehicle. Combined, I am racking up about 150K a year so I know something about highway statistics.

In just your drive to the hill ( not talking entire yearly driving ) you are far more POTENTIALLY likely to be involved in an accident that injures you. I am talking about POTENTIALLY. There are so many factors present that if the slightest thing goes wrong at the precise right time, bam! You're involved in the accident. On the hill, you are not passing oncoming skiers at 60 MPH that weigh 1,500 pounds. You are not typically operating around people skiing and texting like you are on the road. The potential is so much greater driving even if you drive the same distance as you ride in a day.

It's just like the person who is shitting their pants in fear of flying. Same thing, they are in far greater danger driving to the airport than on the plane yet you can't convince them of that. No matter how you look at statistics, the fact remains that you are in fact in more potential danger driving to the mountain than you are once you get there.

I am not saying the driving is that dangerous either. In 23 years of commercial driving with well over 2 million logged miles. I have only been involved in two minor fender benders neither my fault involving drunk people swerving into me. But the potential exists at all times and every oncoming vehicle on a 2 lane highway could be "the one". What I am saying is that the potential on the mountain is so ridiculously low that in essence, people are worrying themselves sick over something that barely exists. The risks certainly do not justify legislative action.
IMO you should compare with driving say...a dirt bike, where you're exposed completely. Not a truck or a car where you already are inside a...metal helmet ;)
 
#239 · (Edited)
Point is..

Recreational activities are at the bottom of the list for a Nation to worry about. With the medical issues and injuries sustained in the US, recreational sports hardly contribute.

I wear a Helmet 80% of the time, I like the fact it's my choice and I can go riding without getting hassled about it.

Nothing pisses me off more than the seatbelt law. The statistics on those are also stupid. If you say no you get a ticket. I wear a seatbelt most the time, but got a 250 dollar ticket in TX driving around the block to the post office near the hotel I was staying at. I never went over 15 MPH.
Fuck you Texas.

Live and let live, please.
 
#237 · (Edited)
Welp, at least the focus is off of me :)

But honestly, now this is becoming political. In NJ it's state law for children under 18 to wear helmets on the mountain. I haven't heard any sort of backlash that has come from this. Another aspect to consider is that requiring helmets may lower insurance premiums for the resorts themselves allowing them to operate with less liability and cost. I don't know if its true or not, but that's another angle to look at.

I do think it should be personal choice for adults who are smart enough and considered mature enough to make their own decisions, but I also see nothing wrong with requiring children to wear helmets and hopefully setting a precedent where that will become the norm for them once they turn 18.


On a smaller side note, it'd be nice if we could stop referring to it as nazism .. Nazism exterminated 6 million Jews along with millions of others and really shouldn't be used to describe something like this. Just my opinion of course !
 
#238 ·
Driving includes motorcycles. Doesn't matter whether you are in a "metal helmet", two vehicles colliding at highway speeds, you are getting injured. Not specifically talking about getting a head injury in a car crash, talking about statistical odds of being injured in a car accident.

My only point is regarding legislating helmet use to address a problem that statistically does not exist. This energy and government money could be put to more productive use.
My point was about exposure and protection... when riding we are exposed as bikers on a dirt road... we have safety measures and technology, why not use it?
 
#240 ·
Simply put

Where do you draw the line with this? At what point do you say this is too much?

So, we get mandatory helmet laws and as is the case, people are still getting traumatic brain injuries because the protection that a helmet offers is very limited at the speeds skiers and riders typically ride. People are still getting injured in the park or riding trees. So, with your model, we then outlaw park riding to reduce this insurance cost burden. Well, shit! People are still getting hurt riding in the trees with broken legs, arms, ribs and some are paralyzed from neck and spine injuries. So, for the greater good, we now ban tree riding. Oops! We see speed is the big factor here so here comes the friendly insurance lobby and now we institute speed limits on the mountain; after all speed limits on the highways saved lives too and while we are on that subject, the 55 MPH speed limit saved a lot of lives so lets go back to that. Which then leads to this; you are required to carry liability insurance on your car so that in the event you injure someone, you have the ability to pay their damages. Well, since many of the skier and rider injuries are the result of collisions, lets mandate that every skier and rider carries personal liability insurance!

Now take this "progress" as you call it and go across the board with it in all recreation from ATV's, motorcycles, rafting, rock climbing, parasailing, kite boarding, snowmobiling, horseback riding, kayaking, etc, etc. Because we don't want anyone getting hurt out there and affecting our insurance costs we need to pass laws restricting people. I am a back country rider and every year people are injured or die in avalanches, so lets ban all backcountry riding.

Sorry, you call it progress all you want, to me it is Fascism and Nazism and I reject it utterly and will fight it every step of the way. The fact is that right now, the actual number of annual head injuries are so low as to make no negligible impact on the overall cost of insurance or medical care for the society. Move to universal single payer health care and the costs are even more spread out without a need for insurance company profit and it becomes even less significant.

There are far more important thing that could be addressed that is affecting your health care costs that a few people each year receiving traumatic brain injuries from skiing and snowboarding. Obesity is probably number one. So, pass a law requiring mandatory exercise programs for people above a certain weight like the military does. You could get all the fatties up on the hill skiing and riding and getting healthy and even without helmets, that would have a bigger impact on your health care costs.

See? We could go down this road of government intrusiveness for ever and call it progress. So tell me, just how far are you willing to go? At what point is there enough regulation? Where exactly is that line between "progress" and Fascism? I know where it is at and I have stated it; we are on that line right now in America. I want to know where that line is at for you.
Simply put, I draw the line between reasonable and unreasonable. To me, it's reasonable to require helmets because they're substantially safer, not uncomfortable and not intrusive. You know, sorta like seatbelts.

But rest assured, I don't believe banning the park or banning tree skiing or requiring insurance is reasonable, so there's no need to refute the absurdity of that slippery slope argument.
 
#241 ·
I finally bought a helmet last week. Bern Watts for those who care. I honestly think it won't do jack in the majority of accidents that occur in snowboarding and will only lessen the severity of ones that involve the neck/head. In extremely rare circumstances, it may exacerbate injuries, particularly to the neck by increasing torque delivered by increasing the moment arm of a force which causes rotation. However, there's also very little burden to own and use one. Therefore, I believe it's more of a personal choice than anything else.

Not to get political, but laws about helmet use are the last thing we need. Like the rash of laws recently further restricting firearms available to law abiding citizens, helmet laws do almost nothing to improve society and at the expense of our personal freedom.

Wear one or not, I am not going to say anything if you do or don't. But if you ask me for a recommendation, I will say get one and wear it.
 
#242 ·
Fair point but Fascism is an established form of government and is an apt term for where we are headed and helmet laws are just a tiny part of it. Because of the connotations associated with it, I will refrain from calling it Nazism.

As for laws requiring lids on kids, I am of the opinion that all things like this should be left up to the parents and the resorts. The government is not our nanny and I am a firm supporter of the concept of a limited government. While being very much a liberal, I am also very libertarian too when it comes to people's freedom and believe there is far too much government intrusion already.

Now, if the resort wants to enact helmet policies, I have no problem with that. As a private entity, they have that right and no one is forcing me to ride at that or any resort. The reason most resorts (at least out west) don't is because they look at statistics and there just isn't a big enough problem for them to waste the time and money to enact and enforce helmet laws. They stand to loose more money from this. Western states already have laws that strongly protect resorts from liability so even the insurance companies really don't care about this issue.

This truly is a media driven frenzy fueled by doo gooders and control freaks who just have to have some cause in their lives to campaign for and to just control others.
I can definitely see where you're coming from. I'm of the opinion that almost everything should be about personal choice - abortion, gay marriage, firearms ownership, even seatbelts.
I am certainly not someone who is a proponent of government control in any form.. I'm currently on probation for something that many of us partake in and something that is proven over and over to do more good than harm. I HATE people who need self validation through controlling others. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm of the same opinion as you are on almost all fronts.. I just don't see an issue in making kids wear helmets - I equate it to school uniforms. If everyone has to wear one, it removes the "uncool" stigma attached to it because it isn't a choice and there's no longer a competition to look cool or compare yourself to your friend next to you. I would say I agree it should be up to the parents, but I don't know how many parents are truly informed on the risks and dangers associated with snow sports in general.
Meh. I'm bored of this topic now lol.

Also, FWIW a helmet is a bitchin place for stickers when you have a top sheet as pretty as mine !
 
#244 ·
The school uniform analogy doesn't work. Private schools are the ones requiring students to wear uniforms which is perfectly fine since it's a choice to attend a private school and they can have whatever requirements they want of that nature. If it were a resort or service that required the use of helmets, that would be a valid comparison.
 
#245 ·
Not to pile on but I pretty much echo Snowolf's sentiments exactly. Helmets are, oftentimes, a good idea but good ideas shouldn't be codified into law. That line of thinking always leads to trouble. Eating a cheeseburger and drinking a tasty pint isn't always a good idea, either, but who's to say if we should be able to do such things.
 
#246 ·
"No, helmets aren't a big Constitutional crisis but the person who advocates laws requiring heets typically is an advocate for gun confiscation, TSA shakedowns, warrant less wiretaps, and detainment of US citizens by the military without due process inde the NDAA."

Let's see: gun confiscation? Nope, don't believe in that. TSA shakedowns? Yeah, I think people should be checked thoroughly before they get on an airplane. I think the TSA sucks, but it's a shitty job and someone has to do it. Warrantless wiretaps? Nope, wrong again. Detainment of citizens without due process? Nope.

So, now that you've incorrectly stereotyped me (and many other people, I'm sure), do I need to point out the hypocrisy of telling forum members not to call each other "idiots" when they disagree on topics like this, while you, an administrator of the site, deride people on the other side of this debate and call them "control freaks," and "fascists?" Or do the rules not apply to you?

Yeah, I'm pretty much done with this thread. I enjoy this forum for snowboard talk, but if you want to flaunt your paranoia over the erosion of your rights in the freest fucking country on Earth, you'll have to do that with another member.
 
#247 ·
So... when are you guys going to stop arguing?


Both sides of this debate have made their points, and the bottom line is that a given resort will decide its own helmet requirements.
If you see someone else without a helmet- it doesn't matter.
If you see someone else with a helmet- again, it doesn't matter.

If a person who refuses to wear a helmet has an accident, let Snow Patrol worry about that.
If it's your best friend refusing to wear a helmet... just let them know your personal concern for them and maybe they'll change their mind. Otherwise, let them be.
 
#249 ·
That's a good point.

But, what's important is that it doesn't matter how that works out for a different person. Personally, I wouldn't care if someone I didn't know looked like they died stupid, or if they were unlucky. It would literally have nothing to do with me.

That's what this thread has become. A place where people say what they think other people should do even though it has no effect on them whether or not they do it. This thread's original intention was for people to discuss the benefits and downsides of wearing helmets, but now it's all just about who should be wearing one. (I'm not pointing to you specifically; just overall. :))
 
#251 ·
Could not agree more and the more I see shit like this everywhere I turn, the more I understand the conservative point of view. Believe me, living near Portland, a hotbed of insane, radical liberalism and nanny laws, running amok with doo gooders, closet Fascists and control freaks trying to mind everyone else's business, I am rapidly shifting to the right. Can't wait to get the hell out of this place and move to the eastern part of the state that is conservative. I don't agree with many of their views but one thing I like about the conservatives is they mind their own fucking business and don't shove shit like this down people's throats!
Yea but epic lines and a long park season are the upsides, right?

I'm dicking around in CO right now, and the more I am here, the more I like it. Not even the snowboard season; I just did a modest hike up Mount Royal near Frisco on my day off (off from snowboarding that is) in a mild snowstorm and just being out away from everything was therapy better than any drugs could provide. The one thing stopping me from considering permanently moving here is shit like HB 1226 looks like it will signed by Supreme Dickhead Hickenlooper this week.

I don't even have a political affiliation anymore until there becomes an official Party of Live and Let Live.
 
#252 · (Edited)
Only reason I wear one id b/c I have smacked my head too many times on East Coast ice and it feels better to do so with a helmet than without. Other than that, people should be able to choose to do so or not, 'tis a free country.

Edit: if your not wearing a helmet would endanger another person's life, then it may be another story, but I say let people hurt themselves in whatever way they want so long as the harm is only put upon themselves.
 
#253 ·
Dude, not once did I call you any names, not once was I disrespectful to you, not once did I suggest that you were a control freak, a Fascist or any other term that you are CHOOSING TO OWN. I specifically said "is typically" to be sure I was NOT stereotyping everyone. The point is that a majority of people in this camp are this way. I never suggested that you were and was explaining MY position. It was YOU who derided my position by the way. Not only that, but I have NOT called any member of this forum Fascists or control freaks and have used those terms in the general sense; again suggesting that those types exist within the broader group. I have been very careful in choosing my words in this regard. You are taking ownership of these terms voluntarily when all I have ever done is ASK you pointed questions and stated my reasons for not supporting the regulations being discussed. The points I raised were designed to get you the think harder about the unforseen side effects of that which you advocate. I even credited you with having "best intentions". So, what this boils down to is you are offended because not only do I not change my position and agree with yours, but I have the unmittigated gall to argue my position. So, you have an emotional outburst and turn it personal and for added effect suggest that because I am an admin, I am not free to engage in debate, then take your ball and go home.

This is all on you pal.
Yeah, whatever you say, dude. Good luck in your "Orwellian nightmare" of having to wear a helmet while you snowboard. Oh, the horror.

And for what it's worth, you don't even know what fascism is. A helmet law in this country would come in one of two ways: capitalism and representative democracy.

Capitalism, in that a private resort chooses to impose a helmet requirement because they believe it's in their best financial interest to do so.

Representative democracy in that the elected representatives decide to legislate the issue, having been duly and properly elected by their constituents. They don't BAN snowboarding. They simply regulate it to make it safer. And if those constituents feel that their elected officials did a poor job, they have the ability to vote for someone else in the next term.

Two ways, neither of which is fascist. You simply use the term as hyperbole. A scare tactic. "Sit idly by while helmet laws get made and one day you won't be able to snowboard at all." That's your argument. And it's the same argument people made when seatbelt laws first happened. "Sit idly by while seatbelt laws get made and one day you won't be able to drive." How'd that work out?

It's bullshit paranoia, nothing more.
 
#255 ·
Again, it's not that I'm cool with my right to choose being taken away for everything. Quite the opposite, actually. I'm cool with the government imposing reasonable regulations for certain things. That is, after all, part of why we have government in the first place. To make rules that are a compromise between the extremes of "no rules" (anarchy) and "too many rules" (nanny state).

65 mph on interstate highways, 55 mph on state highways, 40 mph on county roads, seatbelts, driver's licenses, mandated car insurance. Those things certainly seem reasonable to me when it comes to operating a motor vehicle. I see things like that and I think "that's a little annoying, but I understand." I certainly don't feel less free.

And then there are other people who see a speed limit sign and automatically think "fascism! Gee, I bet Canada is better."

Hint: it's not.
 
#256 ·
This thread is hilarious.

Wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet...who cares?

I wear one when I plan on hitting the park. If I'm just cruising, I'll leave it in the car. I'm a grown up, I know the risks of not wearing one. But we take risks every day.

The fact that this is 28 pages is ridiculous...
 
#259 ·
"Reasonable" is different for everyone. I fully agree that it's subjective. But the point is, government exists to make compromise between people like me and people like you. You are opposed to ANY sort of regulation or even talk of regulation, which means you are opposed to compromise. You are opposed to government doing its job. You'd rather have NO government or have them not do ANY job.

What do you think traffic accident statistics would look like if there were no speed limits or seatbelt laws?

What do you think alcoholism would look like if there were no drinking age?

The fairy tale of "I'll do whatever I want without any government intrusion" is just not going to happen. Not in this country, at least. And why? It's because most people are conscientious and reasonable about what restrictions should be permitted and what restrictions go too far.
 
#263 ·
Ha "take up arms."

See, in Dirty Harry fantasy land, "taking up arms" sounds cool. You get together with your buddies, form a little militia. Call yourselves the "Sons of Liberty" or some shit like that. Maybe play a little paintball to keep your skills sharp. Then you sit around and talk about how cool it would be to fend off an FBI raid when they come for your snowboard beanies.

Do you know what that same scenario looks like in real life, tough guy?

Waco, Texas.

Yeah, now I'm really done here.
 
#264 ·
Oh he's used to it. I see that he lives on New York City, where there are now laws regulating what size soda you have from a fast food joint or gas station. I hear that their Dear Leader, is also banning 2 liter bottles from being silvered with your pizza. Yeah, you can keep that Orwellian shit in New York. Out west, we actually value freedom and individuality and will take up arms to defend it if necessary.
This state is bullshit. Seriously the most ridiculous state. They polled our class in high school and out of 139 students only around 10 said they planned on staying in New York State. The state outside of NYC is dying. Everyone is packing up and moving out. Jobs are leaving, people are done dealing with bull shit, and the jack offs in Albany are sitting there with their thumbs up their asses frantically trying to figure out why everyone is leaving the state like their ignorant asses have no clue why. Wish NYC would just fuck off and become their own god damn state. That's the way it's ran now, except all of our money goes to those fuckers.
 
#267 ·
Seat belt laws? I am opposed to. Yes, I ALWAYS wear a seatbelt but if I don't, it only affects me. I am from Arizona and we have no motorcycle helmet laws and I support that 100%. Do I wear a helmet on a motorcycle? Usually! When its a 115 out, fuck no I didn't. I as a legal adult had the right to weight the risks and make a choice and that's the way it should be. That choice does not adversely affect other people on the road. Arizona understands that it is not its place to be the people's personal nanny and until you have lived in a place like it, you will never understand.
I agree with you pretty much on the point that helmet and seatbelt laws are bullshit, but I am also perplexed by the issue of "you didn't wear a seatbelt and now we have to take care of your vegetative ass as a burden on our society". People who aren't smart enough to wear a seat belt, fear the "click it or ticket" and as a result cost us tons less in healthcare collectively.

I mean gnarly traffic accidents are pretty prevalent in this country...(and yes idiots who would not click it unless TOLD are causing them IMO)

:dunno:
 
#268 ·
I'm a New Yorker and I support the soda ban.

First of all New York is the only state in the country that charges counties for Medicaid spending. Counties mostly rely in some form of property tax to pay the Medicaid bill (the 5 counties in NYC are exceptions.) So its entrenched bad fiscal policy that is killing the state. Taxes that transfer resources across income levels as rule shouldnt come from real property. You can move to NJ and get more for you money.

But while I've never read the research, I understand there is some to support the hypothesis that people will decrease calorie intake if portion size is regulated (they will drink only the 16 oz soda rather than buy 2 whereas preban they'd buy the 32 oz and drink every sip.) Over time this helps reduce cases of chronic diseases such as heart disease and diabetes. Chronic disease management is a massive suck on health care spending, public and private.

To me this isnt much different than Dept of Buildings mandating indoor plumbing at the turn of the century. Yes the state can regulate your rights to shit in a hole, even if you own the hole outright...since it reduces the spread of dysentery. If large portions contribute to unsustainable growth in health care costs, of course the state has the right to regulate portion sizes. If you want more, buy 2. But the evidence shows you probably won't.
 
#269 ·
In 23 years of commercial driving with well over 2 million logged miles. I have only been involved in two minor fender benders neither my fault involving drunk people swerving into me.
But assuming you are somewhere's within 3 standard deviations from the mean (as 96% of the population is) you have had 2 incidents leading to minor injuries in 2 million miles.

I have done max 5000 miles via snowboarding in my life and have had a broken wrist, many contusions, a concussion and one wicked case of frostbite. I have done hundreds of thousands of miles in an automobile and maybe one got a very unflattering arm tan.

Does this hold up for death rates vs minor injury? I dont know. For a number of reasons its harder to die snowboarding than driving. But I still contend snowboarding is waaaay more dangerous that driving but not nearly as dangerous as say football or maybe being a jockey.

Potential really means the same thing as probability so you have to play by those rules. The best person to ask would be an insurance actuary. If you could hold all other variables equal...I still think a 22 year old pro tour rider is going to have a higher disability premium than the 22 year old Teamster driving the Costco truck.
 
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