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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-15-2011 05:41 PM
aiidoneus Flexion decreases the angle between the bones of the limb at a joint aka closing. Extension increases it, aka opening.
12-15-2011 04:10 PM
NateGC Opening the ankles is an extension away from your shin thus "opening" the joint and increasing the angle between your foot and shin.
12-15-2011 03:31 PM
Beschatten When you say "open up your ankles" what does that really mean? You mean bend your ankles outwards? Or inwards?

I've never really put much thought into how I ride. I roll my knees when I need to, and pull off carves when I need too. I've never really had to think any of this out.
12-15-2011 12:11 PM
NateGC Snowolf,
I'll have to try out a Gnu, I've heard alot of good stuff about them. I'm primarily on a Burton Aftermath, whoch has been alot of fun compared to the T7 I have.

Jlm2976,
For sure the dynamic movements being used are very important to bumps and rough terrain. I think naturally the edge angle will want to lower and the legs will work more independantly in the bumps, creating the more skidded turns Snowolf mentioned. In rough terrain, it would depend on the snow conditions. I agree with your focus on pressure and lower edge angle as the exercise to get you there, from an instructing standpoint.

Nate
12-15-2011 11:57 AM
jlm1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by NateGC View Post
Looking back at the video, I actually agree more with your analysis of the short radius carving. There is a bit more independant leg movement then I thought originally, although I still think they are mostly a tipping and pressuring turn (since the edge change is so quick) and would like to see how she navigates rough terrain with that amount of bend at the waist. Also at the end of her toeside turns, she is pressing the tail quite alot and I don't know how easy it would be her her to maintain that position and angle in bumps (specifically pause at 3:22) since her front shoulder is no longer pointing down the fall line and as she sucks the board under for the heelside, she is very collapsed at the waist which doesnt seem to allow for much room to absorb. It also doesnt seem like there is alot of the speed control in the turn or early edge engagement that comes from a more rounded short radius turn.

I feel like if that was attempted on bumps, the attempter would get bucked fast.

That said, I'd love to see more videos like this for crud and bumps to compare. Being a member of PSIA/AASI, our "Movement Matrix" is sadly lacking in that area for boarders. Maybe I'll try to get a few videos of myself riding those styles of turns in various terrain and check it out, see if I look the same or if I'm doing anything different with my upper body.

Like the discussion guys, definitely feeding my inner snowboard geekiness. Haha.

-Nate
The question is what movements is she making that are helpful in the bumps? What could be added to make them more effective? My main focus would be getting the tail pressure to happen in both turns then dropping the edge angle and see what happens to her short snappy turns..
12-15-2011 02:26 AM
NateGC Beschatten,

Yea man, video is priceless. Grab a buddy and a GoPro or Contour for some great shots you can use for a good MA session.

Snowolf,

Excellant exercise in upper/lower body separation and dynamics. Works great for bump riding too.

Looking back at the video, I actually agree more with your analysis of the short radius carving. There is a bit more independant leg movement then I thought originally, although I still think they are mostly a tipping and pressuring turn (since the edge change is so quick) and would like to see how she navigates rough terrain with that amount of bend at the waist. Also at the end of her toeside turns, she is pressing the tail quite alot and I don't know how easy it would be her her to maintain that position and angle in bumps (specifically pause at 3:22) since her front shoulder is no longer pointing down the fall line and as she sucks the board under for the heelside, she is very collapsed at the waist which doesnt seem to allow for much room to absorb. It also doesnt seem like there is alot of the speed control in the turn or early edge engagement that comes from a more rounded short radius turn.

I feel like if that was attempted on bumps, the attempter would get bucked fast.

That said, I'd love to see more videos like this for crud and bumps to compare. Being a member of PSIA/AASI, our "Movement Matrix" is sadly lacking in that area for boarders. Maybe I'll try to get a few videos of myself riding those styles of turns in various terrain and check it out, see if I look the same or if I'm doing anything different with my upper body.

Like the discussion guys, definitely feeding my inner snowboard geekiness. Haha.

-Nate
12-15-2011 01:33 AM
Beschatten
Quote:
Originally Posted by NateGC View Post
Beschatten:

First of all, if you are rolling the knee and shifting your weight forward, you're torsionally flexing the board. Any board can be flexed along its longitudinal axis, some boards are just stiffer than others, and therefore less easy to see/feel.

Second, torsionally flexing the board results in a disengagement of the uphill edge, holding that will result in a turn (generally taking as long as a count of 3 from a standstill.) So I'm not sure what you meant when you said
"I don't think any of my boards have enough torsional flex to even do that (I tried it a few times as a buddy mentioned it) but I end up just turning." (That's the idea!!)

The skidded or carved turn comes from how much pressure you apply during the shaping of the turn. A skidded will result when you roll your knee, shift weight slightly forward, and hold/stay centered while continuing the pressure on the front foot. Carved turns happen when you shift your weight slighty back or pressure your rear foot after the halfway point of the turn, thus applying pressure along the entire sidecut throughout the arc of the turn.

The other method of carving (shown in the video) requires more of a "banking" motion. This allows you to essentially ride the sidecut (rail), but also makes it more difficult to change the radius of the turn (or switch edges quickly without an extreme movement to bring the board back under you and onto the new edge). The way the was demonstrated to get the shorter radius was essentially a racing style of carved turn, where the knees follow eachother and the board is tipped from edge to edge, applying a sudden pressure to carve the board out from under the body and then releasing the pressure to "spring" the board back under the body and onto the new edge. This can be done with speed on groomers (as seen in the film) but will break down when on crud/bumps/off-piste. This is because when both feet are pressured together and act as one (with the knees following eachother) they are unable to act independantly to absorb rough terrain.

Anyway, to acheive the carves in the film, lower your center of mass and actively push your board out from under you and then pull it back under you, pushing it out in the other direction immediately. All the while, keep your body quiet and your front shoulder pointed down the fall line, although it'll require your shoulders to open a bit to acheive the knee-following necessary for the move. (Picture-head on-your upper body as a clock and board as the pendulum; the smaller the clock is in height, the faster the pendulum swings because of the shorter rod connecting the two.) Again, the key to that style is pushing the board out from underneath you, not so much of a torsional move but a tipping one with alot of pressure (although torsion is still technically happening between the turns, it is not really what you're using to engage the new edge and release the old one.)

As far as pushing the tail in/out, allow your center of mass to naturally move back as the board comes around in the turn. Best way to practice this is to do a heelside turn. Drop the leading heel, rotate the knee out and shift your weight in a slight diagonal movement down the fall line (like you described), as the turn comes around, let off the pressure, balance centered over your new edge and rotate your back knee out. This reinforces the centered/athletic stance, and it also pressures the tail of the board without needing a shift aft (which you can add in depending on the radius and speed-as AAA said) and it puts you in the perfect position to start your next turn without any extreme movements. On your toeside, practice by looking back the way you came as you finish the turn and completely relaxing your ankles.

Hope the essay isn't too much. I'm off to the slopes.
Good turns.

-Nate
I think I got gist of it. I tried doing it like that today, but I wasn't sure if I did because well, I cant see myself lol.
12-15-2011 01:16 AM
NateGC Beschatten:

First of all, if you are rolling the knee and shifting your weight forward, you're torsionally flexing the board. Any board can be flexed along its longitudinal axis, some boards are just stiffer than others, and therefore less easy to see/feel.

Second, torsionally flexing the board results in a disengagement of the uphill edge, holding that will result in a turn (generally taking as long as a count of 3 from a standstill.) So I'm not sure what you meant when you said
"I don't think any of my boards have enough torsional flex to even do that (I tried it a few times as a buddy mentioned it) but I end up just turning." (That's the idea!!)

The skidded or carved turn comes from how much pressure you apply during the shaping of the turn. A skidded will result when you roll your knee, shift weight slightly forward, and hold/stay centered while continuing the pressure on the front foot. Carved turns happen when you shift your weight slighty back or pressure your rear foot after the halfway point of the turn, thus applying pressure along the entire sidecut throughout the arc of the turn.

The other method of carving (shown in the video) requires more of a "banking" motion. This allows you to essentially ride the sidecut (rail), but also makes it more difficult to change the radius of the turn (or switch edges quickly without an extreme movement to bring the board back under you and onto the new edge). The way the was demonstrated to get the shorter radius was essentially a racing style of carved turn, where the knees follow eachother and the board is tipped from edge to edge, applying a sudden pressure to carve the board out from under the body and then releasing the pressure to "spring" the board back under the body and onto the new edge. This can be done with speed on groomers (as seen in the film) but will break down when on crud/bumps/off-piste. This is because when both feet are pressured together and act as one (with the knees following eachother) they are unable to act independantly to absorb rough terrain.

Anyway, to acheive the carves in the film, lower your center of mass and actively push your board out from under you and then pull it back under you, pushing it out in the other direction immediately. All the while, keep your body quiet and your front shoulder pointed down the fall line, although it'll require your shoulders to open a bit to acheive the knee-following necessary for the move. (Picture-head on-your upper body as a clock and board as the pendulum; the smaller the clock is in height, the faster the pendulum swings because of the shorter rod connecting the two.) Again, the key to that style is pushing the board out from underneath you, not so much of a torsional move but a tipping one with alot of pressure (although torsion is still technically happening between the turns, it is not really what you're using to engage the new edge and release the old one.)

As far as pushing the tail in/out, allow your center of mass to naturally move back as the board comes around in the turn. Best way to practice this is to do a heelside turn. Drop the leading heel, rotate the knee out and shift your weight in a slight diagonal movement down the fall line (like you described), as the turn comes around, let off the pressure, balance centered over your new edge and rotate your back knee out. This reinforces the centered/athletic stance, and it also pressures the tail of the board without needing a shift aft (which you can add in depending on the radius and speed-as AAA said) and it puts you in the perfect position to start your next turn without any extreme movements. On your toeside, practice by looking back the way you came as you finish the turn and completely relaxing your ankles.

Hope the essay isn't too much. I'm off to the slopes.
Good turns.

-Nate
12-15-2011 12:03 AM
Beschatten I have some food for thought, questions as well.

For skidded turns, I'm not sure if I flex the board torsionally. I kind of roll my front knee and just shift my weight. I don't think any of my boards have enough torsional flex to even do that (I tried it a few times as a buddy mentioned it) but I end up just turning.

And you say that just shifting out the tail in/out is bad form? How do I correct that.

How to Snowboard - Basic Carve - YouTube

Also this. Fast forward to 3:20. The chick is doing extremely quick carving that seem to be perfectly equally arched. How the hell is she doing that? I find shifting from edge to edge like that de-stabalizing. Any tips on that? How to?
08-07-2011 01:37 AM
AAA No pro here, but I've been riding for 20 years and have have the fortune of spending just a few training days under world class / olympic level coaches in recent years. Plenty wrong in this vid (a few yrs old), but it does show some flex/extend or weight/unweight technique. When done to the nth, it feels like your guts are going to drive into the snow during weighting, followed by a snap that feels like you're catapaulting into the trees. 2-G's, I don't believe, are unusual. Drive forward or aft to change the radius of the carve. Different boards like to be ridden different ways. Old school shapes demanded an aggresive nose forward, hard on the gas pedal initiation. More modern shapes can be ridden more neutral. Deep shit with both if you're way back on the tail. Anyway, for what it's worth...

‪Carving Clips‬‏ - YouTube
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