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  Topic Review (Newest First)
10-06-2012 01:15 AM
john doe One' of the worst designs I've seen was my uncle's 96 Honda Accord. To remove the front brake disk requires you to unbolt the CV shaft and remove the hub bearing assembly. Then put that in a clamp and unbolt the disk from the hub.

On my 95 Neon everything was cake. Even changed the fuel pump assembly with out dropping the tank. Well, everything but the heater core that required removing the entire dash assembly. The only weirdness was that the crank pulley is a 6 ton press fit and requires a special puller. It's carried by Autozone and free to rent.

The worst plugs I've ever done was on my friends 99 Caravan with the 3.0. The cowl comes halfway over the engine. You have to get to some from under the van.
10-04-2012 09:58 AM
poutanen Oh man you guys are funny!

I've worked on a lot of different cars over the years. Owned some cool some weird. Work on a toyota and then tell me about engineering...

- most front calipers are designed so that you remove one bolt and the caliper will swing up out of the way for you to change the pads

- on some of the FWD cars the oil filters are right there facing you when you open the hood, also the alternator and starter can each be changed in about 15 minutes

- most interior panels, seats, etc are held on by a few bolts and a lot of plastic snap pins that just pop in and out with a bit of pressure. Sure I've had a few break over the years but it's nice to be able to take off a door panel with a few screws and then just pull it off

Coolest thing I've seen is my neighbours Volvo S40. The headlight assembly is held in place with two metal pieces that slide down between the back of the light and the body. Pull them up and the light slides out.

Worst thing I've ever seen was on the same car. Their liftgate handle wouldn't work, and I ended up disassembling most of the liftgate from the inside... Not fun! Turns out it was a cable in a push configuration instead of a pull. Not a good idea! Once we got it all apart we were able to put a new termination on the steel cable, but the overall design seemed way overdone.

My favorite car to work on (after a 92-96 Camry) would be my 77 Celica. There's enough room in the engine bay for a V8, but there sits a 2.2L Inline 4. It's carbed, there's very little in the way of electronics, computers, etc.

All you conspiracy theorists are funny. They don't build cars to make you buy more cars or have their techs work on them... They have poor engineering, and need to assemble and sell them as cheap as possible. Toyota just has better overall engineering that some of the other brands mentioned in this thread.
10-03-2012 07:57 PM
henry06x
Quote:
Originally Posted by john doe View Post
By the way. I have replaced the rear bank spark plugs on a 98 Buick Le Sabre (3800 series) a few times. Nothing needed to be removed and it wasn't too bad.
Well that's good. I've yet to be so lucky or anyone I really know on these. I'm not sure how big the engine compartment is in the Le Savre but in the Pontiac Grand Prix (ive done before and had friends with them) there is not a hole lot of room left. I'm sure that there's a place you can cram your hand in but it's not ideal or how Chevy has it being listed for changing.
10-03-2012 06:09 PM
bseracka
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheeseForSteeze View Post
Replacing spark plugs on a horizontally opposed engine = suck.
I'm not looking forward to it in my Subie, that's for sure. I don't think I can even see the wires without removing bits and pieces.
10-03-2012 04:45 PM
2hipp4u [QUOTE=john doe;522051]Sparkplugs, batteries, headlights. These are all thing that will only be replaced ever 4-5 years. They should also be planned to be replaced before they fail per the owners manual. Why would anything that needs to be replaced that seldom ever be a consideration for fast replacement design effort. QUOTE]

Simple basic logic would be my response, problem is we live in a throw away society that has very little pride in its craftsmanship. Having grown up with parents and grandparents who lived through the depression you learn to fix things and take pride in what you have and make.

Our landfills are full of crap that could of been engineered to be repaired and have a life span three or four times of what we currently get. It really comes down to corporate profits and greed.
10-03-2012 03:31 PM
CheeseForSteeze Replacing spark plugs on a horizontally opposed engine = suck.
10-01-2012 04:43 AM
john doe Sparkplugs, batteries, headlights. These are all thing that will only be replaced ever 4-5 years. They should also be planned to be replaced before they fail per the owners manual. Why would anything that needs to be replaced that seldom ever be a consideration for fast replacement design effort.

By the way. I have replaced the rear bank spark plugs on a 98 Buick Le Sabre (3800 series) a few times. Nothing needed to be removed and it wasn't too bad. Not as bad as doing a 99 Dodge Caravan's rear plugs. The lower intake gasket sucked on my brother's 97 3100 V6 Skylark.
10-01-2012 03:20 AM
CheeseForSteeze Another aspect auto design incorporates is design for manufacture. Mold injected plastic parts are cheap even though they snap together and apart poorly sometimes making tasks like getting up inside paneling to get at harnesses, light bulbs, or mechanical linkages a pure pain in the ass.

The bottom line is a lot like henry06x is talking about. They marketing and product platform development big wigs set a consumer price per unit and a list of performance requirements at the 10,000 ft level. If they have to use a few cheap parts or funky designs that suck to take apart in order to design a car than be built in a cheaper, more labor-friendly manor then the auto shop mechanics and DIY types are going to get the screw and that's about all there is to it. Even if they come up with a better design before going into manufacturing, they may not implement it because of the cost and time to retool or retrain workers. Even "premium" brands are subject to this since they still have to design for manufacture because they do build cars in large enough volumes.

Some things really seem like oversight, though. Especially interior plasticky stuff. At least mechanical parts are rigid and designed to tolerance and pretty much go back together.
10-01-2012 03:05 AM
henry06x
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2hipp4u View Post
Back in the 80s I worked for winston tire in LA, did brakes, struts, tires and oil changes. I don't remember which model it was but there was a nissan that you had to undo the motor mount and jack the engine up to get the oil filter out. Fucking retarded.

I still think its 50% bad design and 50% intentional to get more revenue in repairs.
Ya do a spark plug change on any 3800 series Chevy car. You have to undo the rear motor mounts and roll the engine forward to be able to reach in. It not intentional to make you take it to a garage. The 3800 was ment to be for rear wheel drive cars, but since its such a strong and good engine they started stuffin it in front wheel drive cars. No redesign so where you could get to them super easy on a rear wheel drive car you can't when it's mounted for a front wheel drive.
Companies start with chassi, drive terrain, main body structure, and then work on from there so its mostly ease of production. Once one peice is done just set the next on top and bolt it down. Sure they do something's so you have to take it to a shop but all the electronics now people just make things worse so why not help them not too?
Trust me when I say shops and techs hate this crap as much as we do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones View Post
I'll bet there's more to this method than just madness. With the high % percentage of cars being leased for 4-5 years, I'm sure that some of these serviceability issues are deliberate and intended to make getting another new car much more desirable than keeping the five year old one. Probably why the 100000 mile service interval involves changing nearly everything.
I went to an auto tech college and we talked about these things in class a lot. Garages and shop techs hate warranties and leases. Warranties are for customers so they will buy that brand that the brand specifies, leases are for people who like buying new cars constantly. Personally I think leasing is impractical and pointless unless you just want a new car. I know way too many people who have leases and swear they never will again because of all the restrictions. Anywho most shop techs get paid flat rate, meaning when you have a job you get paid X amount of hours to perform it reguarless of if you finish faster or slower than the aloud time. You pay this amount of time as a customer also reguarless of weather it's actually in the bay that long or not unless service guy decides to charge less, but that's another thing. As customers you don't pay warranties you car manufacturer does and their version of flat rate is usually 1/2 to 3/4 of the time as normal flat rate. At this time a tech really needs to bust ass to finish the job on time. Same goes for leases they have a warrantie also, but the dealer eill add the extra stipulations because they want them to come back in good shape. So now thinking to make shit harder to help shops and warranties and leases really does not make sense anymore. If the company would make it easier then they would pay less for your car to be fixed when its in the shop under warranty. That hour 2 hour long spark plug/wires change could take half an hour if it was all just right on top in the open.

It's like batteries being put in rediculas places anymore (saw one under the back seat, also have seen trunks). It's not to be an inconviance to you but because they are running out of room in the engine compartment. You will still have to jump it and what not and companies are aware of this, that's why they tell you in the cars manual.
09-30-2012 10:22 PM
Bones
Quote:
Originally Posted by henry06x View Post
so the engineers and designers throw it together in a way that makes for the quickest production to save time and money. They don't care about the next guy who has to work on it.
I'll bet there's more to this method than just madness. With the high % percentage of cars being leased for 4-5 years, I'm sure that some of these serviceability issues are deliberate and intended to make getting another new car much more desirable than keeping the five year old one. Probably why the 100000 mile service interval involves changing nearly everything.
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