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  Topic Review (Newest First)
02-13-2017 11:17 AM
Deacon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morzak View Post
No it's not counter balacing, it's pre rotating, meaning before the FS turn you rotate shoulders/hips over the toeside edge and then de pressure the board so it comes around quickly. Same for Backside but with shoulders/hip rotating over the heelside. I might explain it badly....

Personally I still have Issues with Steep Bumpy terrain if the Visibility isn't good, I tend to get in the backseat and not bend my knees enough. Sometimes I counter Rotate or balance in those instances. I actually try to use the cross unders shown in the Knapton videos more in the steeps and it works fine.

and like wrathfuldeity said all those techniques have their place, and are usefull in different stages of learning or different terrain imho.
I was thinking about this after riding the tight steep trees at Boho... Then Sunday they didn't open the lifts, so I didn't get to try it. I'm going to do that swinging my arm and shoulder as i ride past the tree would help pre-load my turn as opposed to kicking the turn and then having to have my upper body catch up. I'm going to try this on some moguls at home, since we have no good trees to ride.
02-13-2017 05:49 AM
Rogue
Quote:
Originally Posted by jae View Post
doing some quick google-fu only shows him riding for Palestine according to his last youtube post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdvjLXTCCNQ
No shit that is Mt. Hood Meadows right there, right along the ridge above lower Heather Canyon to Shooting Star lift
02-13-2017 03:30 AM
Morzak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine Duke View Post
I hear ya Morzak, but it doesn't make it the best thing to do. That is.....if I understand what you are talking about. Moving your shoulder from side to side is the right thing.....but if it is counterbalancing......and I think that is what you are talking about....it can eventually impede progress and one hits a wall.

I have decades of hmmm....i wouldn't call it counter rotation but more....counter balance going on with my arms. My ski patrol instructor was about to start following my down the hill with a taser to get me to stop. Soooo hard to give it up after that long. And to me I was thinking "thats what I need for balance". I am jussst starting to be able to give it up now but it takes constant thought about my technique. It isn't natural muscle memory. If I hit steep, choppy then I immediately slip back into it without making myself go counter to my intuitive style. BUT.....I am seeing the benefits. It is beneficial to learn to snowboard without needing your arms for ANY of the balancing; counter rotation or just counter balance. Part of that being that using one's arms that way will often force one's upper body (front shoulder) away from where it should be. No throwing the upper body

Someone else posted this vid in a thread about having one's back arm in the air like a vertical stabilizer Which, unfortunately, is another arm balance maneuver that I was guilty of for sooooo long that it is tough to shed.

About a minute into it he points out the former way of the 80s/90s with all of the counter arm balance.....and for me it is a "hey wait I kind of do that" What can I say.....back when I started there were no instructors......just "Winter Waves" by Burton to watch and copy But I am now a believer of not using one's arms as counter balance.....just working on perfecting it Note that he isn't a believer of a dead body either.....like a zombie.....just not using one's arms as counter weights. He focuses on suggested drills using cross under.....but in a nutshell, one of the main takehomes is not to counter balance. I NOW think he is spot on. But it was hard for me to get there Mostly because it made me seem worse off for a while...before I was able to start improving again. BUT....it did help me break through that wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvADH_dLb4w
No it's not counter balacing, it's pre rotating, meaning before the FS turn you rotate shoulders/hips over the toeside edge and then de pressure the board so it comes around quickly. Same for Backside but with shoulders/hip rotating over the heelside. I might explain it badly....

Personally I still have Issues with Steep Bumpy terrain if the Visibility isn't good, I tend to get in the backseat and not bend my knees enough. Sometimes I counter Rotate or balance in those instances. I actually try to use the cross unders shown in the Knapton videos more in the steeps and it works fine.

and like wrathfuldeity said all those techniques have their place, and are usefull in different stages of learning or different terrain imho.
02-09-2017 04:35 PM
Funks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donutz View Post
One trick some people use is to grab their pants legs with both hands so the upper body stays parallel to the board. But do something. You have to break this habit.
They can also "Wag" the tail (trailing hand) when turning and make sure it's inline with the tail of the snowboard. Very very hard to counter rotate when the rear arm / hand is in line with the tail. I force myself to continually do this and my riding has gotten a lot smoother.
02-04-2017 11:12 PM
wrathfuldeity every thing can be laid out on a spectrum....from beginner to expert and beyond...and thus at different points on the continuum call for different interventions/teaching metaphors that help the student. First, becoming aware of the problem/issue. Secondary to give them skills to deal with the task that needs to be learned. And lastly, that they can become proficient and beyond to integration > synthesis > evolve....only to find new challenges at the subsequent higher level.

Problems arise when the intervention/teaching task is not well matched or inappropriately/mis-applied to what the student needs to learn at the time.

My 2 cents
02-04-2017 09:25 PM
Alpine Duke in my instruction we were taught front shoulder on heelside of the board for heelside turn and shoulder on toeside for a toeside turn. Not by much mind you. He gave us a practice drill of having our front hand out and dribbling a basketball on the side we were turning. Meaning, for me riding regular; dribble portside on and heelside and starboard for a toeside. Knees bent to get low without bending over. I was used to throwing both arms out on my toeside when doing a heelside turn (counter balance) which keeps the front shoulder on the toeside even while doing a heelside turn.

i don't know about Canada...but around here they have noobs do the "hands over ends of the board and stand straight" to keep them from picking up any counter rotation. But they don't stick with it.
02-04-2017 10:44 AM
Fielding
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyDragon View Post
Interesting.
I wonder if CASI will eventually relax "the corpse" requirement in its next review of teaching principles.
These things are not unchangeable, but yes, "the corpse" is the current standard that must be taught.

I didn't notice that he explained WHY "the corpse" is not a good riding stance though.
Allow me a few cracks at it:

Severely limits the rider's vision on heelside. This is bad in both turning directions.

Causes neck strain

Stiff and unyielding and therefore makes it difficult to respond to variable surface conditions

Makes real carving harder, not easier because it's harder to center rider's weight over middle board

Harder to decamber a stiff camber board with finesse

Not comfortable for someone who doesn't want to ride duck stance. (Must we all duck?)

Looks ugly

Doesn't feel good

It's dogshit
02-04-2017 10:25 AM
GreyDragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fielding View Post
That RK video spoke to me too. The thing that I am surprised that nobody picked up on was that he labels as "dogshit" the riding style that puts your shoulders parallel to your board. You know, like when you hold on to your pant's legs to prevent yourself from rotating your upper body. As I understand it, this style, the one that he affectionately calls "the corpse," is currently 100% endorsed and taught by CASI instructors as correct riding. Folks seem to endorse it in this thread above. Why? It's ugly and uncomfortable. Stylistically speaking, I think I'd actually rather see a rider crack the whip (I totally do that after 6 or 8 beers!) than go down the mountain looking like a recently unearthed mummy.
Interesting.
I wonder if CASI will eventually relax "the corpse" requirement in its next review of teaching principles.
These things are not unchangeable, but yes, "the corpse" is the current standard that must be taught.

I didn't notice that he explained WHY "the corpse" is not a good riding stance though.
02-04-2017 09:25 AM
Fielding That RK video spoke to me too. The thing that I am surprised that nobody picked up on was that he labels as "dogshit" the riding style that puts your shoulders parallel to your board. You know, like when you hold on to your pant's legs to prevent yourself from rotating your upper body. As I understand it, this style, the one that he affectionately calls "the corpse," is currently 100% endorsed and taught by CASI instructors as correct riding. Folks seem to endorse it in this thread above. Why? It's ugly and uncomfortable. Stylistically speaking, I think I'd actually rather see a rider crack the whip (I totally do that after 6 or 8 beers!) than go down the mountain looking like a recently unearthed mummy.
02-04-2017 08:30 AM
Alpine Duke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morzak View Post
That's a shame that post was really well written and contained some good explanations and tips. I find it interesting that now a days the stationary upper body is such a big focus. Back in the day (like late 90's ) every Instructor I had did teach upper body rotation for drifted turns meaning open (+) position over for backside turns and closed position on frontside turns (-). For me that is still very helpful in steep and uneven terrain especially since I didn't ride for a good 4 years or so.
I hear ya Morzak, but it doesn't make it the best thing to do. That is.....if I understand what you are talking about. Moving your shoulder from side to side is the right thing.....but if it is counterbalancing......and I think that is what you are talking about....it can eventually impede progress and one hits a wall.

I have decades of hmmm....i wouldn't call it counter rotation but more....counter balance going on with my arms. My ski patrol instructor was about to start following my down the hill with a taser to get me to stop. Soooo hard to give it up after that long. And to me I was thinking "thats what I need for balance". I am jussst starting to be able to give it up now but it takes constant thought about my technique. It isn't natural muscle memory. If I hit steep, choppy then I immediately slip back into it without making myself go counter to my intuitive style. BUT.....I am seeing the benefits. It is beneficial to learn to snowboard without needing your arms for ANY of the balancing; counter rotation or just counter balance. Part of that being that using one's arms that way will often force one's upper body (front shoulder) away from where it should be. No throwing the upper body

Someone else posted this vid in a thread about having one's back arm in the air like a vertical stabilizer Which, unfortunately, is another arm balance maneuver that I was guilty of for sooooo long that it is tough to shed.

About a minute into it he points out the former way of the 80s/90s with all of the counter arm balance.....and for me it is a "hey wait I kind of do that" What can I say.....back when I started there were no instructors......just "Winter Waves" by Burton to watch and copy But I am now a believer of not using one's arms as counter balance.....just working on perfecting it Note that he isn't a believer of a dead body either.....like a zombie.....just not using one's arms as counter weights. He focuses on suggested drills using cross under.....but in a nutshell, one of the main takehomes is not to counter balance. I NOW think he is spot on. But it was hard for me to get there Mostly because it made me seem worse off for a while...before I was able to start improving again. BUT....it did help me break through that wall.

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