N~R~G

i agree. i'm a realist too. meaning, i won't deny the slums, but often see them as a means to something better...so i'm an optimist, too i guess.

__________________

"Drugs don't make you a grown up.
A job in computing does."

arctic valley

your kinda missing or mixing my point.
the whole god center of the brain to me perhaps suggests some advanced civilization dna engineering it there in a "this is what they need to believe to prosper" well intended kinda way.

the bee example was only suppost to show how it/we are all manipulated by our dna. passing our dna is really all we do at the end of the day.
we think we want to have sex but how much of it is really what we want. are we just slaves to our dna demands and not know the difference. i mean really why would a man want to put his nose where a womens poop comes out. lol
its illogical. and do it gladly if shes breeding material. lol




you say that yet you and me both live in a world filled with religion where we reek the benefits if you think about it.
im talking on a neighbor to neighbor level not organized religious hacks.
most ppl living here with you think a god is watching so they behave. know it or not, real or not he protects ppl. there are things ppl might do against you that dont because of its teachings and/or punishment.

we had a godless world once and from what ive read it sucked pretty hard. i think if i lived in that world i would yearn for someone to come along and set things fair. lay down some rules that were rooted in equality not might is right like in nature.

this is not to suggest godless today we would all turn into savages but it would rely on trusting the individual to decide in your best interests. which aint really sounding like something thats gonna in this present day work to me.

this is all very true but subject aside if your the only one in a room that seems to think a particular way the easyest thing to do is to assume your smarter than them. i mean im with you on the subject of not believing but its only wise to leave some room that maybe your not seeing a part of the equation they are.

it doesnt mean surrender to them but maybe show respect that its not such a slam dunk for you.

i think one of the keys to being happy is keeping yourself busy. your happiest when your working hard i think. when your life has structure it feels purposeful. and for many ppl i think thats what religion gives them. maybe just a distraction to keep from dwelling on the fact that this world lacks hope. but its benefits to them are even clear to me as an observer.
the religious ppl i know are so dam happy sometimes i wish they weren’t so they would pay closer attention to their driving, lol.
you say ignorance is bliss jokingly but wouldnt you rather live in bliss if you could.

everyone has a way of numbing the pain.
i think ppl could do a lot worst.

PaoloSmythe

I wonder if you have ever been schooled on 'intelligent design', because its primary misconception, is that what we see today was intentional. Evolution is simply a process of random changes which either compliment or detriment an organism in its environment. As such there is no 'advanced civilisation' and no 'engineering'.

I cannot tell you for why people sniff stink holes….. But then again such a fetish is no different to any reason for anything we do…. We can derive pleasure from it. Whether this is reasonably deemed to be DNA controlling us is open to debate… afterall our preferences, pleasures and pains can be based upon a genetic propensity to such.

But as you say, if passing our DNA to the next generation is so vital and if we succumb simply to the DNA demands…. Why do we live for so many years beyond our ability to reproduce? Why do we not have kids, raise them to independence and then kill ourselves, to avoid over crowding / food shortages / being a burden thru being old etc….

Why if DNA propagation is all and only that which matters, can we be allowed masturbation and contraception…. Two methods of wasting such DNA material!

And I suggest that there are far more acts of violence and murder carried out in a god's name, than there is any restraint from doing such acts.

Israel - palestine for one example. America in afghanistan and irak for another. The european crusades for number three and all forms of spanish inquisition and catholic oppression the world over and in between. On the balance sheet of good things versus bad…. Religion, even on the good neighbourly basis, sucks balls!

Tell me more.

But equality is the very last thing endorsed by religious zealots! Not only is there a battle between believers and infidels, but also battles between which god to subscribe to! Whereas if we all agreed that there was nothing in the 'here after' and whatever we have now, is all there shall ever be, so quit the hate and make the most of it….. We would truly be equal! And maybe even more appreciative!?

But this is a misconception. We can form the basis of a moral and ethical code by simply 'doing to others as you would have them do to you'. Aka do not cheat for fear that someone cheats you. ie play fair. No religious text is required for this; just a bit of common sense!

I see your point but do not agree that the easiest thing to do is assume some form of superiority. The simplest thing to do would be to clam up and nod your head to any views that were made public no? Hence what you see in the majority of people.

Indeed; which is why despite arguments of probability rendering the idea of a god near on obsolete, I retain an agnostic conclusion to all such theological matters. We simply do not know; nor shall we ever, apart from when we die.

But what might this world be like if people weren't afforded this delusional comfort rag of religion; and so they were forced to find more tangible and genuinely beneficial works with which to occupy their time?

Who's to say I do not? Being lucid of reality and the evils that exist within it, fail to obscure my appreciation of what is real and genuine in the here and now…. I need no blind hope of a here after, to consume my sundays and darkest moments.

Life is for enjoying. Those who pay lip service to a creator concept are too fearful of dying to enjoy living! this is key to the delusion!

__________________
Just coz you don't understand it
Doesn't mean it makes no sense!

Snowolf

I agree with Paolo on the subject of religion doing more harm than good. To add to his examples, I give you book burning, jailing and even executing scientific thinkers who`s astronomical discoveries about the soalr system went against the teachings of the church, Witch burnings, that atocities commitied right here in America against the Indians because they were deemed to be souless heathens by the church. The list goes on and on. In today`s world, we get the John Hagee`s and Pat Robertsons spewing forth thier crap. Apperantly the floods in the midwest are God`s punishment for our tolerance of gays according to a recent statement from this freak.

On the flip side, I have not seen agnostic or athiest people adopt immoral or even ammoral behavior. In a way, these people seem to relish this life even more as they have no set notion that there is anything after this life and therefore want to enjoy it to it`s fullest and humans are social creatures therefore, through kindeness, respect and generosity, the athiest knows that best way to get the most out of this life is to treat others well. Many religious people are simply not concerned with this life and are center focused on their "afterlife" and tend to treat their fellow human animal like shit. Sometime this it out of total obtuseness through being obsessed with religioon and sometimes it`s very deliberate becasue they feel they have a free pass to go though life fucking people over becaus etheir God forgives them for whatever they do.

I am not as anti religion, but I agree it does more harm in this world than it does good. I think religion is a little like sex. it needs to remain a very private, personal thing that is not pushed or aired out in the open.

__________________

arctic valley

i would say of all the guesses about where we come from i find evolution to be among the farthest fetched.




not what i said, im referring to oral sex. lol


these question seem irrelevant to me.
i never said these dna engineers coded every single thing about procreating.


i said passing our dna is really all we do at the end of the day. weather you masturbate, procreate or not, its not vital at all to me.
but other than a quest for knowledge its the only real thing we accomplish on this earth.




yes but thats man.
power corrupts any and everyone.
the average christain foot soldier live there lifes in peace.
the worst their gonna do to you is bother you at the door on sundays.
many of their leaders on the other hand "pope" get drunk with power and begin judging and excluding. the bible gave ppl a place to point and say it says right here "?" is abolutly wrong. and absolutes lead to intolerance.
what if the bible was inspired by a higher race and we just phucked it all up.
as that would be just like man to do.



through out history yes. but at its bases, do on to others is what most christians believe and practice imo.




sure now that for hundreds of years things like do on to others has been drilled into everyones head.
it can be argued that survival of the fittest is common sense.
as it is the logical example for man to follow.
and thats just it without a book to point in there is no absolute right or wrong only just everyones different perceptions of it.



ok theres something easier but that changes nothing about what ive said.

arctic valley

actually thats a good comparison cus i have trouble believing all those germans were wrong too. i dont presume to know the whole story.
we are raised to believe that basically hitler because he hated jews started a war to irradiate them. and he did it cus he was an evil man.

i have trouble believing that it was jus that cut and dried.
i think at the core we are all the same.
there is no mind controlling evil that sends ppl to do the devils work.
thats an oversimplication imo.



i think for all those germans to follow hitler there is somethings we arent being told. certainly the jews did not deserve to die but what did they do to piss them off so much. as they do have a way of taking shhit over imho.


to think they all just followed some evil dude cus their evil is a cop out.
like i said i dont presume to know the whole story so i leave some room for doubt that all those germans werent all just stupid and/or evil.

PaoloSmythe

How come? I ask because for most intellectuals, it is by far the most compelling….

Irrespecitve of specifics, the conclusion remains the same.

Everything we are is due to our DNA.

If DNA propagation is the only / primary interest living creatures have to abide by, then those questions exist to profoundly undermine this interest. Can't get more relevent than that!

One might suggest that upholding ancient, religious babble above and beyond subsequent scientific endeavour and discovery, does much to ensure that we achieve NOT EVEN a quest for knowledge!

An oppressor fails to exist if there is no one to oppress.

Define 'peace' of the christian foot soldier. Their's is a fool's paradise, where time and resources are dedicated to a fiction, instead of a life more productive in the real. You presume the contentment of a victim of mythology. That is no peace I want a share of and as a morally upstanding and thinking human, I would wish more for my fellow man, (even if they do insist on waking me up on sunday mornings!)

It is certainly safe to say, that for the most part the head of an evil organisation is usually rightfully afforded most of the blame (the US government being a notable exception to this rule)…. But your claiming we ought to condemn the pope but forgive his following foot soldiers, is to ignore the responsibility of personal accountability.

Hitler wasn't the only person who would've have been tried…nor Saddam…. Nor jesus…. Nor any other 'leader'.

Bollocks. do you really see all bible bashers as being ned flanders?

I used that expression as it was fitting of the topic being discussed. I had feared it might confuse perspectives.

If you need to define the origin for a sense of looking out for each other's best interests…. Then we refer back to those instances in nature, (amoungst those species who do not have a 'good book' to refer to….)

Where do they acquire their ability to co-operate and contribute to a mutually beneficial goal?

You soon realise, natural selection (aka evolution) wins and works of ancient religious fiction, scores an aboslute zero.

I see. So here you are presumably telling yourself that you are smarter than me, but retaining an element of doubt that I might be right? (see your quote below)
So what have you achieved? Nothing aside from wasting both our times. This is not intelligent.

Regarding hitler - germany had a situation of econmic recession / stagnation. The government was seen to being impotent in the european community. Hitler got elected on a basis of aggressive development and expansion; an effort to re-establish german pride.

He was 'evil' to the extent that he believed in a superiority within the human species. For sure it can be said that the jewish community has benefitted subsequently from the suffering handed down to them by the nazi movement. And reparation is fair enuff….. But the gypsies, the disabled, basically anyone not blonde haired and blue eyed also suffered. Racism can be enforced because you are a member of a grouping, but also because you are not.

Many of germany's problems were levelled at those groups Hilter chose to identify as being the problem. It is called manufacturing consent, to wage war on whoever the leaders determined were responsible. For a more recent example, consider Bush in Irak… and yes I am directly comparing bush to hitler. Doubt me? Do you feel that there is something to be feared from those of the islamic faiths? Some do. Nuff said.

__________________
Just coz you don't understand it
Doesn't mean it makes no sense!

arctic valley

i sense your gettin a little defensive in your rebuttals.
more of a tit for tat that actual debate.



what did you take a poll or are you just the spokesmen for all the intellectuals.
Its ok though, I dont care what you or others hold up as most intellectual compelling.
I think for myself.



lol, the conclusion remains the same.



conclusion you miss the whole frigin point and go on about meaningless filler.
you answered nothing. lol





who cares, again you dont understand.
an engineer can only tweak dna. add some of this subtract that.
they cant rewrite every single behavior and why would they try.
your tryin to win an argument instead of having honest debate.





whatever. what does that got to do with anything. look at how you deal with an actual fact. you dance all around it and busy your self with the part of the point that is irrelevant to the comment. A for effort though.



An oppressor fails to exist if there is no one to oppress.
ahh nice little quote but again whatever its irrelevant.

i define it by them living their life and letting you live yours.
Imo you should wish less about other ppl business and worried more about your own.





no it simply puts the blame where the power is and instruction come from.





About every one of them i know.
this surprises you?




yea, well try to keep up. lol



first evolution is more about mutation than natural selection.

And who asked you to define any origins.
you have no clue how cruel nature is do you.
Stick to bees.



presume im smarter, easy. but i never said that.
i think your projecting. lol



you seem to think my points are an invitation to regurgitate all you know about a subject. if i wanted a "this is what ive read or been told" history lesson id ask, really.
and again you do nothing to counter my point.

Juggler

Christian-Libertarian-moral consentualist that's how I roll

cifex

consequentialist?