mpdsnowman

So what do u guys think about this..Good move or bad. I was watching last night. Seems it is sort of backfiring on McCain for he was the one jabbing Obama about not having any experience over there.

Now interestingly enough, I noticed something. The news had an interview with Obama while in Afghanistan on last night. Obama maintains after visiting the country that we need "more" troops in Afghanistan. He felt it needs to be done "now" prior to any new President. He indicated it would be alot worse if we wait. The interviewer(who was georgeous by the way) picked up on it too...she kept pressing him asking "if more troops are not enough...would you send more?" At that point he started to skate and turn red faced. His answer was "I would approach that at that time"...with a smile.

All in all I think Obama got a good lesson out of this...A lesson being that if he gets to be President most likely he will still need to add US Troops to somewhere in that region and realistically a new president will most likely not reduce troops anywhere.

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PaoloSmythe

i do not think McCain has much to be concerned about in this respect. afterall, he went over seas for myriad photo ops whilst hillary and obama were still 'in fighting'. this ability to tour first can never be taken away from him and as such, obama can only be seen to be playing catch up by 'copying McCain'!

regarding the specifics of troop deployment.....

this past weekend, Brown said there would be troop reduction in Irak. by suggesting that more troops are needed in Afghanistan, i think obama will precipitate a decline in iraki based US troops. ie there would be a reversal of the dynamics seen in Bush's 'war on terrar'.

afterall, many have complained that the invasion of irak was about personal differences at a head of state level, and the securing of oil resources (not about terrorism or bringing peace and democracy) meanwhile, no body complained about the (very brief) removal of the taliban, altho the methodology of indescriminate cluster bombings remains a very real hazard (not to mention the proliferation of opiate crops)

i think any reployment from irak to afghanistan would suggest a very accurate perception of where such military support was needed.

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sedition

The Obama World Tour can't do anything to hurt him. Depending on how he uses the experience, I think it could do a lot to help him. As you pointed out, it's becomes hard for people to launch the "Obama is naive" bomb when he has been to battle ground. Zillions of people have said that the real war on terror needs to be fought in Afaganastan. Obama has always been aware of that.

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Snowolf

Yeah, McCain went there first, but it was like Alice in Wonderland...he got everything wrong claiming he could safely walk through the markets and get good deals on rugs. He kind of failed to mention that he was in the Green Zone with over 1,000 Marines and 2 Apache gunshipos as escort. Later he could`nt get Suni and Shia straight untill "giggles the Kosher clown" whispered in his ear.

Obama has gone there and is comingaway with real support from Maliki on a 16 month withdrawl timetable; has a lot more support from America`s allies who were treated like red headed stepchildren by Bush and will be by McSame...there is absolutely no question that this trip will boost Obama. For the first time in 7 years, a potentil US president can go to Europe and not cause massive protests. The fact that he is saying more troops are need in Afghanistan is absolutely spot on. Al Queada has regained major footholds once again sine Bush abandoned Afghanistan and let OBL go at Tora Bora as a result of his PNAC driven obsession with Iraq. Obama is looking at this realistically and with a plan other then "stay the course" which is all you will get that senile old fool McSame.

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PaoloSmythe

photo opportunities are what they are.

i fail to see any distinction between what either mc cain or obama have achieved or failed to do.
a picture is worth a thousand words, and to supporters and detractors alike, such visits will provide something.

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mpdsnowman

What really strikes me about all this is the fact that as he tours the mid east/afghanistan...the more he realizes more troops are needed...Basically imo that puts him right along with anyone else in a presidential position. Your damned if u do, damned if u dont....

Alot of Americans want a pullout of Iraq...but do they think about additions to Afghansitan???. Point being if your going to rob from peter to pay paul....its still costing you...and Obama along with anyone else if gets elected...will spend that cost..He has no choice..

Ultimately..."The Change" program he has been pushing on potential voters really is a moute point. Most Americans view "change" as a relationship to the war in iraq...They want change they want them out!!

But there not gonna get that...and Obama will realize it as he continues his travels over there...

I could read his face when he kept getting drilled about.."would you then add more US troops to the region?". He knows he has no choice..unless he can strongly persuade the afgahn govt( in this case) to step up and fight this battle...which they wont..dont need too...The US will add more troops ultimately.

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Perpetual3am

I think the big thing is that Bin laden was (or still is) actually in Afghanistan, the people of Afghanistan want the help, and the entire reason of going to Afghanistan wasn't over lies, non-existent wmds and bringing democracy to people under a tyrant the US once supported. For a lot of people, going to Afghanistan was the "right" war, yet its one that has taken a backseat to Iraq. Yes it might still cost the same to the American people, but at least it actually makes sense to be there, because I still don't know what benefits have come out of Iraq, except providing a training ground for every Jihadist on the planet.

Whether all the troops get moved to Afghanistan is a completely different subject as to whether they should still be in Iraq. McCain doesn't want to pull out without a "win", yet no one can define what a win or success would be, so what's the point of a continuing presense beyond training their army to deal with the aftermath of yet another cluster fuck that the US cannot seem to get themselves out of. How many more Vietnams do we need before people realize that the US gov't are idiots when it comes to foreign policy?

Barrack has the only sensible answer, and that the war is obviously unwinnable and all the Iraqis have to look forward to is cleaning up the mess that the US leaves behind. If McCain has his way then all you can look forward to is 8 more years of what Bush gave you...nothing but lining the pockets of the elite and a lot of dead Americans, Iraqis and a country left far worse than it ever was.

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mpdsnowman

Numbers do indicate that since the surge, there has a reducion in violence in iraq.

Now this is the interview last night obama did with Katie curric.

Obama: Surge Doesn't Meet Long-Term Goals, In An Exclusive Interview With Katie Couric, Illinois Senator Defends Position On Troop Buildup - CBS News

This is a great interview. I saw this...He is cornered on this issue...IF....IF the surge is doing well as the numbers indicate...IF the reason now is to restore iraq to its people...are we doing the right thing by pulling out...IF it is working...

That is where a republican standpoint will win. Now McCain smiles as he points out the progress the surge has made....I dont know if the surge is the answer. But I know that the right call for the President is to keep pressing on..IF it is producing...positivly as it is.

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PaoloSmythe

if you consider all the facts as opposed to just those ones that you find personally to be more satisfying (ie polarisingly complimentary to your predetermined POVs)

Obama’s trip abroad: Effect of Iraq surge is downplayed

i have no axe to grind nor preference in whoever wins.... i find McCain being vigourous in support and accusing Obama of denying any positive effects (when he has acknoweldged improvements) to be as willfully obstinant as Obama saying he would still oppose any troop surge even in light of evidence that it helped the situation.

it just defies rationality.

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gibbous

Not everyone sees the deployment of more troops as the reason for the decrease in violence. Violence may be down since it started, but that doesn't automatically mean that's the reason for the improvement. Some people will tell you it's because we've been bribing militia groups with US tax dollars to be on our side, areas of religious strife have been completely cleansed of one side of the combatants, and because Al-Sadr called a cease fire on his own. Most of the troops in the surge went to Baghdad, yet the Sunni awakening that was truely responsible for running Al-Qaeda out took place outside the capital and started before the surge was even launched. I'm not sure what to believe myself, but figure it's probably a horribly complicated combination of all those things together, including extra stability from increased troop presence.

I too am sick to death of hearing McCain and others talk about a necessary "victory" in this war. Now that the reasons given for going to war and killing thousands of people have been proven false, there is no victory anymore in my book, just varying shades of catastrophe.

Republicans are going to slam Obama no matter what he does, but it's going to be interesting to hear how they try to put a negative spin on 200,000 people showing up to hear him speak in Berlin while McCain was broadcasting live from the supermarket cheese cooler.