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slimpanzee · 12-01-2008, 06:33 PM

I think it's hard to see both sides of this argument, because neither system is perfect, and neither is superior. They're superior to each other in different ways, which makes comparing the two, comparing apples to oranges. The US system is set up to make rich people rich. It's set up for the have's, and the have not's get left behind. Then again, MANY things in the US are set up that way.

But those that work hard, and have the unfortunate situation to rack up lots of medical bills, should NOT have to worry about coverage. If we're "superior", then why can't we develop a system with the best of both worlds?

**Snowolf** · 12-01-2008, 06:41 PM

There is in my opinion. It is called single payer.

The only thing that changes under a single payer system is that these leeches called insurance corporations are cut out of the picture. The pool of participants is larger therefore premiums are drastically reduced. With the state and federal government managing the payment system, there is no need to make a profit so more of the peoples health care dollar goes directly toward health care. The doctors, drug companies, hospitals, clinic all remain private and competitive.

A single payer system is that ideal balance between what we now have and a Socialized medicine.

Am I invisible or what? this is the third time I have brought this up in the conversation and you still just bitch back and forth at each other!

slimpanzee · 12-01-2008, 06:48 PM

^^^Very similar to medicare, and very similar to what Obama would like to do.

But I don't think Perp's and MPD's debate is about that. They seem to be debating which system is better, not a solution to the broken parts.

Perpetual3am · 12-01-2008, 06:59 PM

I don't understand Sno, because you brought up a way to fix your system, I can't talk about how shitty the current one is? Am I missing something here?

And we've already gone through this Mpd,(I showed you the stats, remember?) we don't pay much more taxes than you and yet we have universal health care. Of course it's not free, glad you pointed that out because I had no idea.

The funny thing is I could go on and on with examples like I've shown, but why bother since they're are useless for a discussion that involves a entire population. Bringing up that people with serious health problems have more to worry about than money is the exact reason why they shouldn't have to worry about it when they are in that condition. Gee, I wonder if someone will have a better chance at getting healthy again if they didn't have to stress about money.

And slimp, if you serious think that the majority of people that are homeless or unemployed could just get a job and fix their situation you have no idea what you're talking about. Volunteer at a shelter and talk to the workers there and see just how complex the problem can be.

But I'm starting to understand that most Americans with their 'can do' attitudes think that anything can be overcome, so fuck the poor and homeless. How you can dismiss millions of people as being lazy or what not is just beyond me?

Perpetual3am · 12-01-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slimpanzee

^^^Very similar to medicare, and very similar to what Obama would like to do.

But I don't think Perp's and MPD's debate is about that. They seem to be debating which system is better, not a solution to the broken parts.

That would be MPD, as I stated a page ago, I took issue with the Americans are healthy by numbers when clearly they are not, as shown with evidence. He has tried to make this into a versus debate because he can't refute the evidence I've put forth. And it bugs the shit out of him when I constantly hand him his ass...but I'm guessing he likes it.

Perpetual3am · 12-01-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpdsnowman

Got Milk??? bet your ass does

Fuck, I can't believe I missed that. You do know milk doesn't come out of a cow's ass, right? I think I'm seeing the extent of the lack of education now.

**Snowolf** · 12-01-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perpetual3am

I don't understand Sno, because you brought up a way to fix your system, I can't talk about how shitty the current one is? Am I missing something here?

My point is that I have made several attempts to engage in the conversation and it seemed neither of you will come up for air long enough to hear what anyone else is saying. I am on your side here with regard to how broken our system is. I am just butt hurt that it seems that no matter how much thought and effort I put into posting here it is wated effort, thats all.

Perpetual3am · 12-01-2008, 07:16 PM

Oh I'm listening, but I can't just sit here when the person that's dragging the convo down with his ridiculous notions keeps going on and on about something that is patently false while ignoring all the evidence people keep throwing at him. It's like he purposely wants to be ignorant. I probably should have just ignored him, but I find ignorance just too tempting some days when I have the time. I ask myself why I bother, but sometimes it's just plain fun.

Ok, enough with Ostrich-D.

So what would one pay into a single payer system, would it be tiered by income? And what effect do you think that would have on the insurance companies since there are huge financial incentives towards developing new drugs? Moving them over to being totally government run might not be the answer because although some systems like the police, fire dept. work well, I think of government overspending and some other examples where it doesn't. Maybe a system where those companies are still private but are extremely regulated?

**Snowolf** · 12-01-2008, 08:12 PM

Currently in America as we are taxed, we have federal income, some states have a state income tax. We also pay into Social Security which our employers also pay into as a match. Our only single payer system is Medicare and we pay into that. The logical approach is to simply expand Medicare to become the Single Payer system. It is indexed to your income so everybody pays an equal percentage. Higher income people pay more into the system than low wage people.

You see the root of the problem is there is a line of thinking that that is unfair. The logic goes something like this: why make someone pay more into the system even though they may use it less? The more socialist logic like mine says that fairness is paying an equal percentage and that those who benefit from living in a society that allowed them to become more successful have a responsibility to contribute back into that system.

I did the math a few posts back and I will dig it up to illustrate how every American can pay less than half of what they are now paying for private insurance and yet have a massively funded universal health insurance that eliminate these horrible scenarios we see every day.

Yes, government oversight is always needed. The financial bailout is proof that you can never allow any private industry to "self regulate" the free market always fails through it`s own greed in not regulated by society. As for incentives to drug manufacturers, this is an easy thing to do as well through grants, bonuses and simple competition between companies to produce the most effective drugs at the lowest price through awarding contracts and purchases for the health care industry. Medicare does this very effectively currently. It is actually the most efficient health care system in America where more of the patients dollar goes directly toward actual health care.

As for the insurance companies, personally I hope they dry up and just go away, we wont need the profiteering bastards any longer.

**Snowolf** · 12-01-2008, 08:16 PM

Okay, it was way the hell back on page 3 or there abouts:

Quote:

One thing MPD never talks about is the people who do have health insurance... Lets for a moment not even talk about the uninsured here. Lets talk about the people who do get treatment, but then the insurance company denies payment for bullshit reasons. Lets talk about the people who are denied medical procedures based on some chair bound paper pusher in an insurance corporation, not the medical doctor. Let`s talk about the people who denied any medical insurance due to bullshit "pre existing conditions" The truly poor don`t have a pot to piss in so they are not out anything other than lack of care. They use the Emergency Room which costs all of us huge amounts of money. They wait to see a doctor until a situation becomes severe and more costly to treat which costs the rest of us tons of money. Those of us who have houses, IRA`s and assets are the ones they come after. When our insurance companies fuck us over and we are left holding a $300,000 bill for a heart attack, we can`t just say "oh well I can`t pay" or say" all I can afford to pay is $100 a month until hell freezes over" they come after our homes, our retirement accounts, all of our assets to recoup their money. We loose it all. This is bullshit in the richest nation on earth. America can damn well do a hell of a lot better. When even Mexico has national health care, we sure as hell can.

I have been involved with this ongoing debate here and at TOS when it was still living so some of this is old hat. In a nutshell, I support Single Payer Health care over our private system and here is why:

1) In any system whether privately insured or governmentally insured, the larger the pool of participants the lower the premiums for all members. We see this group health policies and that is why companies like Blue Cross can offer lower premiums. Now, if that "pool" was every American citizen, that would equate to "buying power" and reduced premiums.

2) A private entity MUST make a profit, while a government ran one should not. The government is intended to be simply the "tool" of the people to administer the goods and services needed to make society function. Tax dollars buy goods and services and should never be used to generate a profit that has no return to the "investor". So, in a private system a sizable percentage of health care dollars spent are eaten up by required profiteering. In a single payer, government ran system 100% of health care dollars go to buy those goods, services and administrative costs.

3) Single payer systems are good for a nation`s economy. With the rest of the industrialized world providing "socialized" health care to their people, their economies are more competitive than ours. Their business`s are not burdened with staggering health insurance costs for their works. Ask any business owner how ungodly the cost of providing medical insurance is for their employees. It is said that right now about $3000 of the cost of a new American made car is health care. Companies are leaving America like rats jumping off the Titanic. Yes it is partly taxes and environmental regulations, but mostly it is labor costs and health insurance costs. Even if we are not talking about a plant in Mexico, it is much more economically advantageous to build that plant in Europe than it is in America because the workers in Europe do not need company provided health insurance.

4) ultimately, socialized single payer health care is cheaper in the long term. MPD spends $1400 a month for private health insurance which is outrageous. There are about 300 million people in America and census statistics indicate that about 200 million are working tax payers.

Lets do a little math here:

Cut everybody`s insurance premiums to $150 a paycheck or $300 a month (far less than any family or individual plan available, even just a major medical plan) So, do the math and that amounts to $60 Billion a month going into the system to provide health care for all. Over the course of the fiscal year, that equates to a $720 Billion health care program which exceeds any expected costs and you and I get health care that we never loose, never have to worry about being denied due to pre existing conditions or loose due to a lack of ability to pay. Never again does any American ever have to face loosing their retirement savings or their home due to medical illness. We get this kind of security for far less than we are paying for now and can loose at any time.

In my opinion, if we can occupy an entire nation and fight a war in Afghanistan for $15 Billion a month, I think we can provide universal health insurance for every American for $60 Billion a month.

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