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Old 01-05-2009, 10:16 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vlaze View Post
It's on the eastern boarder of Israel
i was using sarcasme...the previous post was a guy
that didn't know where it was .
it is in the region of gaza (been fighting for 1000 years)
and yes those jews made it worse out their
 
Old 01-05-2009, 10:23 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Interesting article on the one-sided reporting by western news agencies of the invasion of Gaza:
Al Jazeera English - War on Gaza - In the US, Gaza is a different war

Make no mistake that the IDF doesn't care about civilian casualties, from using cluster bombs in urban areas in Lebanon, there are now many reports of using White Phosphorous rounds in their artillery strikes. The Geneva convention prohibits use of WB in urban areas, Israel should be tried for war crimes...again.

Keep in mind that the rocket attacks on Israel inflict the same damage as a weekend of traffic accidents in Israel, which in turn in no way justifies such a heavy handed response that has so far left 500 dead and 2500 wounded, 20% of which is estimated to be children.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:57 AM   #23 (permalink)
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In all reality though, both side share equal blame.
not when you consider proportionality and indeed the overzealous use of violence from one of the involved parties.

for a clue, look at the death toll of this current situation, or indeed that of 2 summers ago.

whilst neither side can be honestly said to be blameless, there is much more blood on one side's hands than the other and this shouldn't be overlooked.

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Palestinians need to accept Israel's existence, and Israel needs to stop their slow holocaust like genocide of the Palestinians.
this is an interesting attitude when you consider that the modern day state of israel was created inlight of a certain german based entity, imposing its existence on its neighbours.....

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It sucks that the Palestinians lost their homes, but just accept it and start rebuilding so the next generation has something to look forward to other than the cycle of violence.
and here lies a problem.

it is dismissive to the point of ignorance to presume this conflict is based upon a matter of principle.

the fact remains that israel annexed those regions of arab land that were most attractive in their verdance and productivity.

for the palestinians to prevail to being able to look forward to, they need an export industry. sadly things such as agriculture etc are entirely within the israeli territory. meanwhile the future of palestine is based on.... red cross hand outs (which israel allows to pass). pure subjugation

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Sometime I think the Arab world thrives on this conflict, it gives them something to distract their population, lest the people turn their attention to the corrupt and disgusting regimes in their own countries.
the irony in this last paragraph is choking. i congratualte you.
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:12 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Paolo, as a Muslim I'm obviously sympathetic to the Palestinians, however, when I see Hamas and Fatah killing each other, when I see the Saudis and Kuwaitis building palaces while giving lip service to the conflict, when I see a complete lack of intellectual progress in the Arab world, I think it is time to accept the reality. Despite all their wealth, the Arabs are a defeated people, and they need to make the best of their situation.

In my opinion, Israel is one the most racist regimes in today. They have learned from the Nazi's about propaganda, their control of the media is impressive, and many in the West have bought into their cause. Not only that, they have an educated population a thriving technology industry, and are united in there cause, which just happens to be to opress their weaker neighbours. Does that make them right? Of course not, but they are the bully on the block, with an even larger bully (the US) supporting their every move.

Do the Palestinians really have a choice but to accept their fate? They unfortunately do not have the means to really fight for their rights, they have no choice but to live on their knees, or die. As sad as it is, it is what it is.

As long as Israel has continued support from the world for their genocide of the Palestinian people, we will continue to see a disproportianate response.
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:56 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Paolo, as a Muslim I'm obviously sympathetic to the Palestinians,
Why obviously? This isn't a conflict determined by theological division. I would argue that isn't even really one of ethnic diversity. It is merely the illegal occupation of another country's land. Being a muslim shouldn't afford you any greater insight of this situaiton than a sikh, agnostic or even a jew!

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however, when I see Hamas and Fatah killing each other, when I see the Saudis and Kuwaitis building palaces while giving lip service to the conflict, when I see a complete lack of intellectual progress in the Arab world, I think it is time to accept the reality. Despite all their wealth, the Arabs are a defeated people, and they need to make the best of their situation.
Could you please explain? Defeated how? You are regarding a vast swathe of diverse and distinct nations and several cultures. Considering recent fuel price fluctuations are provoked by OPEC, they seem far from powerless and are defeated how? And why should we expect Saudi or Kuwaiti populations to act any differently to the rest of us? What is being waged in gaza is abhorrent to all people, other than those brainwashed to not see the bloodlust, or those who derive profit from it.

Hamas and Fatah fought for reasons instigated by western agencies. There was hope that each would destroy themselves. But as we (theoretically) would hope, the will of the people won thru. And so it continues.

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In my opinion, Israel is one the most racist regimes in today. They have learned from the Nazi's about propaganda, their control of the media is impressive, and many in the West have bought into their cause. Not only that, they have an educated population a thriving technology industry, and are united in there cause, which just happens to be to opress their weaker neighbours. Does that make them right? Of course not, but they are the bully on the block, with an even larger bully (the US) supporting their every move.
I think suggesting racism to be their underlying motivation is perpetuating the fraud of this issue. There is the annexation of a territory and the oppression and slaughter of those who would wish to see this reversed. Issues of race, culture, ethnicity and religion have little to do with this, other than to muddy the waters and to manufacture division.

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Do the Palestinians really have a choice but to accept their fate? They unfortunately do not have the means to really fight for their rights, they have no choice but to live on their knees, or die. As sad as it is, it is what it is.
And so it continues. But for as long as it continues, the bad guys simply get 'badder'.

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As long as Israel has continued support from the world for their genocide of the Palestinian people, we will continue to see a disproportianate response.
Boycott israeli products. Such a concept saw the end of apartheid south africa, where similar death and oppression also seemed to be unassailable.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:19 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Perpetual3am View Post
Interesting article on the one-sided reporting by western news agencies of the invasion of Gaza:
Al Jazeera English - War on Gaza - In the US, Gaza is a different war

Make no mistake that the IDF doesn't care about civilian casualties, from using cluster bombs in urban areas in Lebanon, there are now many reports of using White Phosphorous rounds in their artillery strikes. The Geneva convention prohibits use of WB in urban areas, Israel should be tried for war crimes...again.

Keep in mind that the rocket attacks on Israel inflict the same damage as a weekend of traffic accidents in Israel, which in turn in no way justifies such a heavy handed response that has so far left 500 dead and 2500 wounded, 20% of which is estimated to be children.
I file anything reported by Al Jazeera in the same place I would something reported by Fox News.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:26 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by PaoloSmythe View Post
Why obviously? This isn't a conflict determined by theological division. I would argue that isn't even really one of ethnic diversity. It is merely the illegal occupation of another country's land. Being a muslim shouldn't afford you any greater insight of this situaiton than a sikh, agnostic or even a jew!
Ask anyone on the street what they know about the conflict, and most people do not know much, with obvious exceptions such as yourself. As a result most will sympathize with Israel. I've been reading about this conflict since my teens. I know what that area means to us. The biggest problem is that Israel is not willing to share Jerusalem as an international city.

Muslims just don't buy into the American/Israeli propaganda.

One of the things many forget, is how many Palestinian Christians there are.

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Could you please explain? Defeated how? You are regarding a vast swathe of diverse and distinct nations and several cultures. Considering recent fuel price fluctuations are provoked by OPEC, they seem far from powerless and are defeated how? And why should we expect Saudi or Kuwaiti populations to act any differently to the rest of us? What is being waged in gaza is abhorrent to all people, other than those brainwashed to not see the bloodlust, or those who derive profit from it.
Arab nations hold very little international influence, other than the price of oil. I would not say they are defeated militarily, but intellectually. How many top notch universities can the Arab world boast, despite their immense wealth?

Saudis and Kuwaitis should act differently, because they can afford to, and claim cultural and religious unity with Palestinians.

I'm not arguing that what happens in Gaza is abhorrent, it is also illegal under international law, but until Israel loses American support, it will continue.

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Hamas and Fatah fought for reasons instigated by western agencies. There was hope that each would destroy themselves. But as we (theoretically) would hope, the will of the people won thru. And so it continues.
Why were Hamas and Fatah so influences by outside forces to pick up arms against each other? They need to show some unity and put the arms down. Palestinians killing other Palestinians really doesn't make any sense at all.

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I think suggesting racism to be their underlying motivation is perpetuating the fraud of this issue. There is the annexation of a territory and the oppression and slaughter of those who would wish to see this reversed. Issues of race, culture, ethnicity and religion have little to do with this, other than to muddy the waters and to manufacture division.
There is an underlying racism within Israel. While it may not be the only motivating factor, you cannot subjugate, oppress, and exterminate another populace without dehumanizing them. So while their motivation is to grab more land, the underlying method involves a racist attitude towards Palestinians.


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And so it continues. But for as long as it continues, the bad guys simply get 'badder'.
Agreed


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Boycott israeli products. Such a concept saw the end of apartheid south africa, where similar death and oppression also seemed to be unassailable.
This would be great, but I don't think it is going to happen. Most of their technology products are targeted towards the Information Security industry, and companies are not willing to boycott Israeli products over this issue. It could be viewed as Anti-Semitic. Very dangerous territory considering the numerous agencies that watch over this.

I'm not arguing with you here, I am playing devil's advocate though.

Why didn't they carve out a piece of Germany?
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:48 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I file anything reported by Al Jazeera in the same place I would something reported by Fox News.
Since when is bias limited to Fox News? All news agencies are biased, I get my news from all sources and after reading this particular article and researching the articles it mentions within, I tend to agree with the author. Taking any information on it's own would be stupid, but to think that Fox is the only one fabricating the news is naive at best.

Did you even read the article Mooz? Of course not
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Perpetual3am View Post
Did you even read the article Mooz? Of course not
You know me better than that. Of course I read it.
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Old 01-05-2009, 02:36 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Well that's what I figured, but then you dismissed the news agency and not the content of the article, and never mentioned anything about western news agencies and their reporting. Look around you, it's pretty much bang on. Hell I just watched a video on the BBC that was completely fixated on the Israeli side of things and spent 80% its length on how a single Israeli soldier has died, the israeli people are terrorized from the rockets, while only mentioning the Palestinian people for 10 seconds without even referencing a death toll or the fact that Gaza is under a artillery, airstrike and tank bombardment that doesn't even compare to a bunch of unguided rockets that have produced 18 dead Israeli's since 2001.

Like I said, it's not hard to see these biases. I guess I would hope that you would comment on the content and not the news agency, even Fox news reports some issues correctly some of the time.

Edit: A great example of the bias is how many times are the rocket attacks mentioned as a legit basis for the Israeli invasion, yet they always seems to disregard the fact that Gaza has been blockaded for almost 3 years?
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