Killing stirs furious debate over vigilante justice - Page 3 - Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-02-2009, 09:50 AM   #21 (permalink)
hm1sfidc
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snaplok View Post
After getting shot in the head, the kid wasn't going anywhere.


LOL No CHIT !!!
 
Old 06-02-2009, 10:15 AM   #22 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
justdust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Albany
Posts: 494
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hm1sfidc View Post
Dude ! WTF over !
I think SW is right to be concerned, and hm1 is right that the typical GI is not corrupt.

The military is very much a role model based society, which, at its core, is charged with protecting the nation, including its people, as well as its ideals. The danger for this role model based society is that recent role models, in the form of the previous administration, demonstrated their willingness to abandon democratic ideals to achieve their goals (while claiming to act in the name of spreading democracy). The danger SW points out, I think, is that in the very hierarchial organization that is the military, bad leaders can have tremendous sway over subordinates who signed up to serve their country with the very best of intentions...which can easily lead to the abuse of power. Hopefully this danger has been reduced by the electorate, which has replaced the civilian leadership of the military with what appears to be a more honest and fundamentally democratic (small "d") administration.
justdust is offline  
Old 06-02-2009, 11:17 AM   #23 (permalink)
snaplok
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by justdust View Post
I think SW is right to be concerned, and hm1 is right that the typical GI is not corrupt.

The military is very much a role model based society, which, at its core, is charged with protecting the nation, including its people, as well as its ideals. The danger for this role model based society is that recent role models, in the form of the previous administration, demonstrated their willingness to abandon democratic ideals to achieve their goals (while claiming to act in the name of spreading democracy). The danger SW points out, I think, is that in the very hierarchial organization that is the military, bad leaders can have tremendous sway over subordinates who signed up to serve their country with the very best of intentions...which can easily lead to the abuse of power. Hopefully this danger has been reduced by the electorate, which has replaced the civilian leadership of the military with what appears to be a more honest and fundamentally democratic (small "d") administration.
I think it has to do more with the type of person who enlists. Too many trigger happy people going into the military wanting to shoot something.
 
Old 06-02-2009, 01:47 PM   #24 (permalink)
hm1sfidc
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I feel your pain on the first few comments I experienced some of the same type of personalities in the early to mid 90's. I can only speak as far as the Navy is concerned I would have to honestly say we have come full circle. It's not just sign your name and you’re in it until you decide to get out, enlistments are not guaranteed anymore. The Navy has taken many different approaches to assure that we have the best fighting forces, as well as the right type of person in those jobs. You must perform, not just do your work anymore. We have a policy PTS (perform to serve) for all E-6 and below with up to 15 years, as well as E-7-E9 they have initiated SERP (selected Early Retirement program). Basically in civilian terms (no pun intended) if you do not perform above and beyond your done out not able to reenlist, same goes for the upper echelon if you do not perform above and beyond, community service, command involvement, mentoring your junior troops your done your given a pink slip.
I here allot of whining and bitching in regards to these policies but hey I want the best of the best working with me no fn 9-5er. You have to be in it for more than a paycheck or college benefits now if you want to do more than one enlistment.
As for the civilians running the military Dude SnowWolf I feel ya on that one, IMHO I think anyone who holds those type of positions should have some type on military back ground. Walk a mile in my shoes... Just a personal feeling.
I also did not mean to come off as harsh, it’s just times have changed, like I said I can only speak for my service.
 
Old 06-02-2009, 04:07 PM   #25 (permalink)
Veteran Member
 
Perpetual3am's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,212
Default

That may be in the Navy, but the army since 2004 has been lowering recruitment standards to allow people with past criminal offences to become eligible, even to the point of allowing felons to join up. Aside from that factor, soldiers aren't trained to be police or peace officers, I sure as hell wouldn't want the military involved with containing a riot. Shock and awe just wouldn't work in that situation.

I agree with SW, the national guard is a better choice.
__________________
"This comment brought to you by Bombay Gin"
Perpetual3am is offline  
Old 06-02-2009, 04:15 PM   #26 (permalink)
snaplok
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpetual3am View Post
That may be in the Navy, but the army since 2004 has been lowering recruitment standards to allow people with past criminal offences to become eligible, even to the point of allowing felons to join up. Aside from that factor, soldiers aren't trained to be police or peace officers, I sure as hell wouldn't want the military involved with containing a riot. Shock and awe just wouldn't work in that situation.

I agree with SW, the national guard is a better choice.

x2. Not every branch of the military has such high standards, sometimes it's about having bodies. There's a reason there's a motto "The few, the proud." Most criminal infractions tend to come from the Army statistically.

Seth Robson, Stars and Stripes
GRAFENWÖHR, Germany — U.S. criminal gangs have gained a foothold in the U.S. military and are using overseas deployments to spread tentacles around the globe, according to the FBI.

FBI gang investigator Jennifer Simon said in an e-mail to Stars and Stripes this week that gang members have been documented on or near U.S. military bases in Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea and Iraq.

“It’s no secret that gang members are prevalent in the armed forces, including internationally,” Simon said, adding that the FBI is preparing to release a report on gangs in the military.

Among the cases:

¶ In Iraq, armored vehicles, concrete barricades and bathroom walls have served as canvasses for spray-painted gang art. At Camp Cedar II, about 185 miles southeast of Baghdad, a guard shack was recently defaced with “GDN” for Gangster Disciple Nation, along with the gang’s six-pointed star and the word “Chitown,” according to the Chicago Sun-Times.

¶ In Germany, a soldier is being prosecuted this week for the murder of Sgt. Juwan Johnson, beaten to death on July 4, 2005, allegedly during a Gangster Disciple initiation in Kaiserslautern.

¶ In September, Department of Defense Dependents Schools in Europe warned teachers and parents to watch out for signs of gang activity, including the deadly MS-13 gang. At the time, DODDS-Europe public affairs officer David Ruderman said there had been two incidents in the past 18 months that involved students fighting, wearing gang colors or claiming to be members of gangs. In one of the incidents, a student’s family member may have been a gang member, he said.

¶ Earlier this year, Kadena Air Base on Okinawa established a joint service task force to investigate gang-related activity involving high school teens linked through the Web site MySpace.com.

Last year, the U.S. Army conducted 11 felony investigations into gang activity, one of those being the death of Johnson, said Christopher Grey, a spokesman for the Army Criminal Investigation Command (CID) in Virginia. Three of the incidents, including the Johnson case, took place in Europe, Grey said.

“We investigate all credible reports of gang activity,” Grey said, adding that CID has programs to combat gang activity in the Army.

Soldiers are reluctant to talk openly about gang problems. However, Spc. Bautista Kylock, 21, of the 2nd Cavalry (Stryker) Regiment in Vilseck, Germany, said last week that there are gang members within his unit.

Kylock blamed recent violence around Vilseck on soldiers affiliated with the Crips and Bloods street gangs.

Scott Barfield, a former Defense Department gang detective at 2nd Cav’s last duty station, Fort Lewis, Wash., told the Sun-Times earlier this year that he had identified more than 300 soldiers at the base as gang members.

“I think that’s the tip of the iceberg,” he said.

However, Vilseck Provost Marshal Maj. Robert Ray said there is not a big gang problem in Vilseck and he has no information on gang members within 2nd Cav.

“The military comes from all walks of lives, from rich to poor, and with that comes the ‘society,’” Ray said. “Are there members of the military that belong to gangs? No doubt about it. But the military is not rampant with gang members.

“The military chain of commands do not tolerate things like that and do their best to weed out problems,” he said.

There are no official statistics on gang membership in the military, but some experts have estimated that 1 percent to 2 percent of the U.S. military are gang members, Simon said. That compares with just 0.02 percent of the U.S. population believed to be gang members, she wrote.

“Gang membership in the U.S. armed forces is disproportional to the U.S. population,” she added.

Jim Kouri, vice president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police, wrote recently that, in addition to the Gangster Disciples, other Chicago gangs such as the Latin Kings and Vice Lords have infiltrated the military along with neo-Nazi groups.

Although there are no numbers to back it up, Simon believes gang member presence in the U.S. military is increasing.

“The U.S. Army has reported an increase in gang-related activity in the military, although their numbers are low,” she said.

Gang-related activity in the military is highly underreported, and the Army is the only branch of the military that collects gang-related statistics, she wrote.

“It’s often in the military’s best interest to keep these incidents quiet, given low recruitment numbers and recent negative publicity. The relaxation of recruiting standards, recruiter misconduct and the military’s lack of enforcement (gang membership is not prohibited in the Army) have compounded the problem and allowed gang member presence in the military to proliferate,” Simon said.

It's also said that the biggest gangs in the country is the nation's Police Depts.

Last edited by snaplok; 06-02-2009 at 04:19 PM.
 
Old 06-03-2009, 12:46 PM   #27 (permalink)
hm1sfidc
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
There is a little ray of hope here. My friend who joined the Army in 2004 and has been in Iraq for 3 tours is now ready to get out. Since Obama became president he told me that the DOD`s policies on enlistment have been tightened up and the Army is no longer allowed to let convicted felons join. I agree we have a long road to travel to get the quality of military personnel back to what it was before Bush, but the new administration is actively working to clean this up.

Yup this is true, spoke with an Army Recruiter today he had a few newbs needing physicals to enlist and I picked his brain.
 
Old 06-03-2009, 01:00 PM   #28 (permalink)
hm1sfidc
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snaplok View Post
x2. Not every branch of the military has such high standards, sometimes it's about having bodies. There's a reason there's a motto "The few, the proud." Most criminal infractions tend to come from the Army statistically.

Seth Robson, Stars and Stripes
GRAFENWÖHR, Germany — U.S. criminal gangs have gained a foothold in the U.S. military and are using overseas deployments to spread tentacles around the globe, according to the FBI.

FBI gang investigator Jennifer Simon said in an e-mail to Stars and Stripes this week that gang members have been documented on or near U.S. military bases in Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea and Iraq.

“It’s no secret that gang members are prevalent in the armed forces, including internationally,” Simon said, adding that the FBI is preparing to release a report on gangs in the military.

Among the cases:

¶ In Iraq, armored vehicles, concrete barricades and bathroom walls have served as canvasses for spray-painted gang art. At Camp Cedar II, about 185 miles southeast of Baghdad, a guard shack was recently defaced with “GDN” for Gangster Disciple Nation, along with the gang’s six-pointed star and the word “Chitown,” according to the Chicago Sun-Times.

¶ In Germany, a soldier is being prosecuted this week for the murder of Sgt. Juwan Johnson, beaten to death on July 4, 2005, allegedly during a Gangster Disciple initiation in Kaiserslautern.

¶ In September, Department of Defense Dependents Schools in Europe warned teachers and parents to watch out for signs of gang activity, including the deadly MS-13 gang. At the time, DODDS-Europe public affairs officer David Ruderman said there had been two incidents in the past 18 months that involved students fighting, wearing gang colors or claiming to be members of gangs. In one of the incidents, a student’s family member may have been a gang member, he said.

¶ Earlier this year, Kadena Air Base on Okinawa established a joint service task force to investigate gang-related activity involving high school teens linked through the Web site MySpace.com.

Last year, the U.S. Army conducted 11 felony investigations into gang activity, one of those being the death of Johnson, said Christopher Grey, a spokesman for the Army Criminal Investigation Command (CID) in Virginia. Three of the incidents, including the Johnson case, took place in Europe, Grey said.

“We investigate all credible reports of gang activity,” Grey said, adding that CID has programs to combat gang activity in the Army.

Soldiers are reluctant to talk openly about gang problems. However, Spc. Bautista Kylock, 21, of the 2nd Cavalry (Stryker) Regiment in Vilseck, Germany, said last week that there are gang members within his unit.

Kylock blamed recent violence around Vilseck on soldiers affiliated with the Crips and Bloods street gangs.

Scott Barfield, a former Defense Department gang detective at 2nd Cav’s last duty station, Fort Lewis, Wash., told the Sun-Times earlier this year that he had identified more than 300 soldiers at the base as gang members.

“I think that’s the tip of the iceberg,” he said.

However, Vilseck Provost Marshal Maj. Robert Ray said there is not a big gang problem in Vilseck and he has no information on gang members within 2nd Cav.

“The military comes from all walks of lives, from rich to poor, and with that comes the ‘society,’” Ray said. “Are there members of the military that belong to gangs? No doubt about it. But the military is not rampant with gang members.

“The military chain of commands do not tolerate things like that and do their best to weed out problems,” he said.

There are no official statistics on gang membership in the military, but some experts have estimated that 1 percent to 2 percent of the U.S. military are gang members, Simon said. That compares with just 0.02 percent of the U.S. population believed to be gang members, she wrote.

“Gang membership in the U.S. armed forces is disproportional to the U.S. population,” she added.

Jim Kouri, vice president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police, wrote recently that, in addition to the Gangster Disciples, other Chicago gangs such as the Latin Kings and Vice Lords have infiltrated the military along with neo-Nazi groups.

Although there are no numbers to back it up, Simon believes gang member presence in the U.S. military is increasing.

“The U.S. Army has reported an increase in gang-related activity in the military, although their numbers are low,” she said.

Gang-related activity in the military is highly underreported, and the Army is the only branch of the military that collects gang-related statistics, she wrote.

“It’s often in the military’s best interest to keep these incidents quiet, given low recruitment numbers and recent negative publicity. The relaxation of recruiting standards, recruiter misconduct and the military’s lack of enforcement (gang membership is not prohibited in the Army) have compounded the problem and allowed gang member presence in the military to proliferate,” Simon said.

It's also said that the biggest gangs in the country is the nation's Police Depts.

I could post up a million articles showing the good the service members due but I will not bore you with the details.
Good and bads everywhere no matter where you might be or which subpopulation you might belong to. Like a majority of the news Negativity attracts the attention. I am not discounting their acts one bit just saying for all the bad you point out I can point out just as much good !
 
Old 06-03-2009, 01:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
snaplok
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hm1sfidc View Post
I could post up a million articles showing the good the service members due but I will not bore you with the details.
Good and bads everywhere no matter where you might be or which subpopulation you might belong to. Like a majority of the news Negativity attracts the attention. I am not discounting their acts one bit just saying for all the bad you point out I can point out just as much good !
That is more than true.

It's also comforting to know that the Army has raised the bar again for recruitment. It has attracted a lot of the worst of society just to have numbers. Not all branches, but that one started to give the military a bad rep.
 
Old 06-03-2009, 03:39 PM   #30 (permalink)
Veteran Member
 
Perpetual3am's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,212
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
There is a little ray of hope here. My friend who joined the Army in 2004 and has been in Iraq for 3 tours is now ready to get out. Since Obama became president he told me that the DOD`s policies on enlistment have been tightened up and the Army is no longer allowed to let convicted felons join. I agree we have a long road to travel to get the quality of military personnel back to what it was before Bush, but the new administration is actively working to clean this up.
I'm glad to hear that, I believe the majority of the men and women in the service are good people. Issues like this take focus away on the good that they do every day. It was pretty disheartening to hear stories of some of the people they let in under the Bush admin, scary when the same people are going to Iraq to help the Iraqi people.
__________________
"This comment brought to you by Bombay Gin"

Last edited by Perpetual3am; 06-03-2009 at 03:43 PM.
Perpetual3am is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:31 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
VerticalSports
Baseball Forum Golf Forum Boxing Forum Snowmobile Forum
Basketball Forum Soccer Forum MMA Forum PWC Forum
Football Forum Cricket Forum Wrestling Forum ATV Forum
Hockey Forum Volleyball Forum Paintball Forum Snowboarding Forum
Tennis Forum Rugby Forums Lacrosse Forum Skiing Forums