Retailers Head for Exits in Detroit - Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums
 
 
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Old 06-18-2009, 10:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
snaplok
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Default Retailers Head for Exits in Detroit

retailers-head-for-exits-in-detroit.html: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

It's seems that the economic stimulus plan didn't end up saving anything out of the auto industry yet billions of dollars were pumped in to saved them. So now the little guy gets fucked twice, once for being in the middle of the price raising, layoffs, and foreclosures, and again for having to pay back in taxes all the money that was used to keep big business afloat. This is becoming more of a joke day by day. But there's nothing funny about it.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 06:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Large corporations folding wouldn't be as big a deal if there were multiple small business in place to pick up the slack. However, small business have a hard time because the US is becoming less of a manufacturing company, so making stuff here is expensive. And the average consumer would rather buy a price mart piece of shit snowboard for 150 bucks from Wal-Mart than buys a 500 dollar board from a company that builds their boards in the states (using snowboards because this is a snowboard site )

We can all blame the government about this, but when it comes down to it, it's not just the gov, but the corporations AND the consumers. You want the economy to recover, allow the policies to take hold. Meanwhile, reduce your debt and buy with CASH, and buy American made products. If you can't afford it right away, save your money and buy when you can. And if American products are a bit more expensive, save up for it. In the long run, you're helping employ an American that in turn is helping keep you employed. Hard to do, but try your hardest. With greater consumer demand for American made products (let's say local made, for those that don't live in America), then more small business will pop back up fulfilling a need that has been created.

And remember that every bit of interest you pay on credit goes to a rich dude, which is taking middle class money, and putting it in the hands of rich dude, and in turn causes wealth to leave middle class families. But every cent of cash you pay goes to the people who made, shipped, and sold you that kick ass Lib-Tech Jamie Lynn or new NS Evo you got from your local snowboard shop run by your buddy's friend
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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While I'm fully agreed with the idea that America is suffering because of our loss of manufacturing, I don't necessarily agree that you should buy American just to buy American. People used to buy American because Americans used to make the best in the world in numerous industries. particularly high volume/cost markets like cars and computers. If an American company makes a superior product that costs more, I'll gladly buy it, assuming that I value that product enough to want the extra quality. (Keep in mind of course, not everyone wants to pay $500 for a snowboard no matter what. $150 hunk of junk is just fine for lots of casual people. My mother's fine with her $30 mp3 player, an ipod would just confuse her.) On the other hand, I'm not going to buy a Ford when I could get a superior foreign car for less money. Nor should the government be subsidizing companies to make sub-par, overpriced items. Nature abhors nothing more than a vacuum, and capitalism abhors nothing more than a company that should have failed being propped up by government intervention. I'm not naive enough to think that allowing giants like AIG or GM to fail would be anything short of disastrous, but if your company has failed to the extent that it necessitates a government buy out, it should be cannibalized, sliced into parts and sold to the highest bidder, with the removal of all senior executives. If a mighty oak falls, you let it decay back into the forest, you don't get a crane, put it right side up and tend to it for 10 years. There will always be new trees, and they'll grow better without the oak.

Detroit's slow death is a tragic outgrowth of this, but the mid-west is littered with once mighty cities left behind by the death of the railroads and the gold rushes. Just as there will always be a new car company, there will be new cities. If Detroit is going to die out as an American metropolis, it's going to die, and attempting to revitalize it will be a vastly expensive fool's errand. If government money is the only thing to attract new business to Detroit, those businesses will leave for greener pastures once that money is gone and their commitment is up.

Basically, buy American if the company deserves it. If they don't, you're just prolonging their demise.
 
Old 06-23-2009, 04:36 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringheelJack View Post
Nature abhors nothing more than a vacuum, and capitalism abhors nothing more than a company that should have failed being propped up by government intervention. I'm not naive enough to think that allowing giants like AIG or GM to fail would be anything short of disastrous, but if your company has failed to the extent that it necessitates a government buy out, it should be cannibalized, sliced into parts and sold to the highest bidder, with the removal of all senior executives. If a mighty oak falls, you let it decay back into the forest, you don't get a crane, put it right side up and tend to it for 10 years. There will always be new trees, and they'll grow better without the oak.

Detroit's slow death is a tragic outgrowth of this, but the mid-west is littered with once mighty cities left behind by the death of the railroads and the gold rushes. Just as there will always be a new car company, there will be new cities. If Detroit is going to die out as an American metropolis, it's going to die, and attempting to revitalize it will be a vastly expensive fool's errand. If government money is the only thing to attract new business to Detroit, those businesses will leave for greener pastures once that money is gone and their commitment is up.

Basically, buy American if the company deserves it. If they don't, you're just prolonging their demise.
I had talked about the whole Wall St fiasco in another thread. And you are completely right. I see some of the stuff that goes on there first hand thru some of my friends who work within the financial system, some of what goes on doesn't even get reported now and it's a lot worse off that you think.

I still attribute all this to the 'entitlement' attitude, but I'll say it again and again if I failed at my business and cost a company thousands, tens of, millions, I would be terminated without grievance, not given a bonus to retain me, then flown off to a spa to have a sales meeting in a corporate jet.

Something went horribly wrong and now the 'entitled' are fighting to keep what they think they're due. Short of a baseball bat to the knees I can't imagine what else they need. I hear in the papers 'Oh I went to school' a lot of people do, 'I'm a mover shaker, deal maker' you moved and shook, and your deals failed.

For the government to have bailed out these asses, while I see small neighborhood business fold, just so these people can keep their jobs is criminal. This money was given to the wrong people and you know after all this the car industry still failed, plants closed, and people lost their jobs, from that people will lose their homes, more small businesses will close in the areas and more people will be sucking on the government's tit. Yet the execs have been given golden parachute packages if they lost their jobs or they get to keep them and do the whole bs all over again.

There's a running joke about Bernard Madoff who, in a Ponsi scheme bilked out 20 billion from people and made it disapear. He's being investigated by the federal government, which is funny cause they made $750 billion disapear. And when the American public starts to see that THEY have to pay this back, the real laugh will be on them.

I know that if this will work it will take time, try tell that to the middle class who are now homeless.
 
Old 06-23-2009, 05:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't disagree with buying the quality product. But I think there's a large population buying crap from Wal-Mart that isn't quality, but it's cheap. Rather than buying from a small company that costs a bit more. It would be nice to see a demand for QUALITY American made products. Buying American keeps more jobs here. Not just in the shipping and retail industry, but the manufacturing sector. The more jobs that come back to the US, the better. But I do agree. That doesn't mean, continue pumping out crap products. Innovate, think forward...

Personally, I am trying my hardest to stay away from the larger business, and purchasing from small shops. It's damn hard, though. It would be nice to see a shift in the American consumerism, but I doubt it will.
 
Old 06-23-2009, 08:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
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You are not going to get the lazy American people to do it. The only way to turn this around is to adopt a little more Protectionist trade policies and close the loopholes for American corporations to outsource manufacturing and still get tax breaks. Obama has closed a few of these already, but more needs to be done. I am for tariffs on any product manufactured in another country; there needs to be incentives for American corporations to manufacture their goods here. It needs to become cost prohibitive to outsource.
Now there's part of the biggest problem for workers, outsourcing. From computers to cellphones I've seen tons of American workers laid off and their jobs shipped overseas while these companies still receive tax breaks. Cheaper overseas workers mean more profits, less benefits paid, and less overhead. For the US worker it means less jobs and more competition for the jobs that are left.

Personally some American products are hugely outsourced, either from manufacturing or from technical support so the line is getting thinner and the products inferior. I would love to buy American from little stores all the time if I could, and I try to go out of my way especially when I travel. But the markup of 100% or more doesn't justify me doing so. It still amazes me though how we ended up paying for our water and a $4 cup of coffee. Now if I can find some Arabs that want to buy sand, the world will start to be a better place.
 
Old 06-23-2009, 08:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You are not going to get the lazy American people to do it. The only way to turn this around is to adopt a little more Protectionist trade policies and close the loopholes for American corporations to outsource manufacturing and still get tax breaks. Obama has closed a few of these already, but more needs to be done. I am for tariffs on any product manufactured in another country; there needs to be incentives for American corporations to manufacture their goods here. It needs to become cost prohibitive to outsource.
I'm all for closing the loopholes, but not much else. Aggressive tariffs cause retaliatory moves by other countries (And why shouldn't it? Should they just grin and keep buying our products and services pretending like nothing's happening while we cripple their ability to do business in the US?) A tariff on an AMERICAN country bringing its outsourced goods back into America might be a good idea though. And as I said, the consumer is the absolute last person who should be blamed in this equation. If there are two shoddy pieces of merchandise, and they can get one at Wal-mart for $5 while getting everything else they need, why on earth would they make an extra trip to pay $10 for an equally shoddy piece of merchandise just for the flag on its label? Why waste their time and money looking out for the little guy just because they can't hang with the Chinese factories or Wal-mart? Who's looking out for them? How can you honestly expect the lower class to sacrifice for the good of the middle class?

Capitalism is at its finest on a level playing field. The mess we're in is largely a result of government trying to tinker with the market, creating tax cuts and incentives that have blown up in everyone's face. More might help, but I'd doubt it.
 
Old 06-24-2009, 08:28 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringheelJack View Post
I'm all for closing the loopholes, but not much else. Aggressive tariffs cause retaliatory moves by other countries (And why shouldn't it? Should they just grin and keep buying our products and services pretending like nothing's happening while we cripple their ability to do business in the US?)
Many trade agreements aren't equal, they more or less hamstring the U.S.. Look at the South Korean trade 'agreement' if you want an example.
Quote:
The mess we're in is largely a result of government trying to tinker with the market, creating tax cuts and incentives that have blown up in everyone's face. More might help, but I'd doubt it.
Most economists agree it's largely a result of the government staying out of it. Deregulation and the idiotic greed made possible by it started this problem.
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Wolf, I agree, most Americans won't demand American made products and won't stay out of Wal-Mart. But they'll easily blame the government for not fixing the economy while they do their part to destroy it. That's what makes me shake my head. People quick to blame the government for not fixing the economy, or ruining the economy, but not taking ANY responsibility of their own. Like blaming the housing crisis solely on the banks and yelling at the government for their involvement. Didn't the people taking the loans have just as much to do with the housing crisis. And those people that got a little too greedy getting ARM loans and flipping causing housing prices to increase at stupid rates.

Outsourcing sucks. Plain and simple. And the argument that says outsourcing is good because it brings IN work is bullshit. With the US, it's clearly a lopsided, oneway street. Meanwhile, less jobs.

I don't disagree that keeping gov out can sometimes be the best answer, and that large tarrifs on some countries can lead to retaliatory behavior. However, we aren't a part of a level playing field when competing with countries that don't have the same labor laws, the same environmental laws, etc... So our products cost a bit more to make because of that. Which means, countries like China that have drastically different laws, can ship their stuff here made super,super cheap, sell it to consumers and make large profits. There is no level playing field unless the gov steps in. We can't force them to have the same protective laws we have. So something else has to be done.
 
 

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