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Old 12-07-2009, 02:13 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Is equality and liberty compatible??

Is equality and liberty compatible??
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Old 12-07-2009, 02:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Is equality and liberty compatible??
Elaborate.... a lot.
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Old 12-07-2009, 02:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Definitely depends on how you define liberty/freedom. In a truly free society, you would be able to discriminate against whomever you wanted for whatever reason you wanted. Like if Alta wanted to discriminate against snowboarders and only allow skiers, they could do that. Oh wait....that already happens. Alta sucks.
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Old 12-07-2009, 03:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You mean 'Are'...

Anyway....I assume you are pointing out that in a society where everyone is equal (theoretically) such as communism, the members have to be forced or coerced into compliance thereby depriving them of their liberty. Is that that what you meant?

There is a difference between being equal and being equal under the law. Despite what your idealistic grade school teacher taught you, we are not all equal. Some of us are fast, some of us are strong, some of us are smart, some of us were born rich.

Please elaborate....
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Old 12-07-2009, 05:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cifex View Post
You mean 'Are'...

Anyway....I assume you are pointing out that in a society where everyone is equal (theoretically) such as communism, the members have to be forced or coerced into compliance thereby depriving them of their liberty. Is that that what you meant?

There is a difference between being equal and being equal under the law. Despite what your idealistic grade school teacher taught you, we are not all equal. Some of us are fast, some of us are strong, some of us are smart, some of us were born rich.

Please elaborate....
Maaaan...Well said! I agree. We are not created equally, but I think the inference there is that we should be treated as such. We each have our own strengths and weaknesses and if everyone in the world were equal in their composition and abilities, I think we would become stagnant. There would be no progression, no forward movement, no one to study cures for cancer, no one the flip our burgers, etc.

Liberty, is something we can find within ourselves. The freedom to make choices as we see fit, provided we are not harming others (this of course, opens up a brand new argument on morality). Two of my favorite quotes:

(This one I have tattooed on my wrist) "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand

"The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. Each is the proper guardian of his own health, whether bodily, or mental or spiritual. Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves, than by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest."

That said, I do believe that while equality whether with one another or under the law and liberty are such disparate ideas, I don't see how one can be achieved without impeding upon the other. Liberty, however, is something we can find deep within ourselves and define for ourselves. Having the liberty to live your life in such a way as you see fit, without concern of judgment of others. I have found the most liberating thing in life for me has been to not give a flying fuck what anyone else thinks of me!

I believe in the individual right to the pursuit of happiness.

Peace!
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Nothing in life, including nature is absolute. Absolute liberty or freedom equates to anarchy and civilization cannot survive in anarchy.

Take nature as an example. With wolves, there is a pecking order; nature demands it. In a wolf pack, there is a hierarchy with levels of beta members who are subservient to the higher beta and the alphas. This order is absolutely necessary for the survival of the pack. But, the entire pack and every member in it has their welfare provided for, even the lowest beta member.

So it is with people and society. There is absolutely a pecking order and those with the alpha qualities such as skills and strengths that out perform the average, climb higher and achieve greater reward and status. Our ultimate survival though depends on securing the welfare of all of the members of that society in the same way that nature works with the wolf pack.

The problem is that human beings possess "qualities" that nature did not curse the wolf packs with and that is greed and selfishness. As a result, there have been a system of laws and regulations to ensure that the strength of society is not compromised by the unchecked predatory nature of the super alphas of society.

There has to be a balance between absolute liberty and absolute equality; without that balance, both are utterly destroyed.
I agree on this balance however liberty and eqaulity are compatible but only under the right conditions. If one is to look at the present social classes of a country one can quickly realize that people are in fact not equal due to different wealth classes. Even thought equality may not exist through wealth, equality those in fact exist in liberty. The law system encourages equality of conditions by creating rules and limits for all people implying that nobody can be above the law. So as long as individuals actions are within these limits they are free to do as they please and since these limits are the same for everyone equality is achieved. Therefore a degree of liberty and equality does exist but just not on all levels. Total equality will never be achieved as this would produce a negative effect and as snowwolf said someone will always need to be in control I.E. the pack leader however while obvioulsy this inequality is present it is necessary because both groups benfit from each one another.

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