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Old 01-21-2010, 02:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Who does? Christians who see in that a chance to get/buy/bribe/steal? more believers on their side of their flat world. It's a business of minds. The most successful on the planet. Nothing to do with relief or help AT ALL.

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Originally Posted by Leo View Post
I believe in God and all that good stuff. What I don't believe in is cult mentality which is why I don't attend church regularly. I'm not disgusted with religion, but I am absolutely disgusted with the people who are overtly religious.

Who gives a fucking bible to earthquake victims? I guess the same people who bash homosexuals and molest little boys.
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:05 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Secret? Not really
"His relationship with the United States proved difficult. In his early years, Duvalier often rebuked the United States for its friendly relations with the Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo (killed in 1961), while leaving Haiti, "the poor negro Republic out in the cold". The Kennedy administration (1961/63) was particularly disturbed by Duvalier's repressive and authoritarian rule and allegations that he misappropriated aid money, then a substantial part of the Haitian budget, and a Marine mission to train Tonton Macoutes. Acting on the charges, Washington cut off most of its economic assistance in mid-1962, pending stricter accounting procedures which Duvalier refused. Duvalier publicly renounced all aid from Washington on nationalist grounds, portraying himself as a "principled and lonely opponent of domination by a great power."[6]

After Kennedy's assassination in November 1963 - which Duvalier later claimed resulted from a curse that he had placed on him.[18] - the U.S. eased its pressure on Duvalier, grudgingly accepting Duvalier as a bulwark against communism.[6][19] Duvalier skillfully exploited tensions between the United States and Cuba, emphasizing his anti-communist credentials and Haiti's strategic location as a means of winning U.S. support:
"

DO you really think that anithing like that goes on WITHOUT the approval of the WH?

Nahhhhhh

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Originally Posted by bryantp View Post
The story there is so deep and the problems so great...and that was before the earthquake. Tonton Macoute, Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier, U.S. secret cooperation, slavery, torture, Aristide, etc. The topsoil is gone...farming isn't very productive.

I'm a Buddhist so forgive me for going biblical -- we don't just need to provide food and medical care (we do need to do that), we need to teach them to fish (figuratively).
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:21 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BurtonX8 View Post
My problem with this is (as stated in another post) is that the religious groups come in and push the bible on people when they are at their most vulnerable. They don't need a bible they need food, water, doctor aid and a shelter. Lets say my city gets nuked and I survive, if someone has water in one hand and a bible in the other, which would I reach for first? Stop clogging the ports with their religious "gifts", make room for something the people actually need. If a box of bibles is sent it's one less box of food and water and we all know that there are issues getting all the supplies in.

Perhaps in short this (^^^^) is part of what MDP was saying.

I don't think, and correct me if I'm wrong, he was saying there was anything wrong with what the Red Cross is doing; but rather, what other religious groups are doing in the wake of this disaster. Using the earthquake as a way to make us cough up money and then holding part of the proceeds as profits for their own wallets. Another part of the money to spread/preach their beliefs. And then come up short on the actual cause...

Also, I believe he said something along the lines of: it took the religous groups a disaster to get in there and help, when shit hit the fan along time ago and no one came in earlier to really help.

If that's what MDP was saying....then I guess I have to agree.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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My use of the word "secret" was not in the concept of unknown by anyone. Rather, it is unknown by most people. Most people don't even know who the Duvalier's were/are, much less our love/hate relationship with them. Most don't know the depth of cooperation between us and Panama's Noriega when we knew he was a narco profiteer and much worse. The Shah. Marcos in the PI. Mexico's P.R.I. The hits just keep coming.
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Old 01-21-2010, 06:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I know. Nice to be in this forum really...good reads.
What do you think of the new law on corporations? Nice uh?

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My use of the word "secret" was not in the concept of unknown by anyone. Rather, it is unknown by most people. Most people don't even know who the Duvalier's were/are, much less our love/hate relationship with them. Most don't know the depth of cooperation between us and Panama's Noriega when we knew he was a narco profiteer and much worse. The Shah. Marcos in the PI. Mexico's P.R.I. The hits just keep coming.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:10 PM   #26 (permalink)
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But Upstate NY funding does not even come close to this topic
Ahh.. So are you saying upstate funding is important, so continued requests for money will not be considered begging?
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Is this a special bond to Haiti??? Naaaaa not really. But non the less it is a special bond with a Hatian and his family who are very grateful we do what we do for Gabe...
Have you informed Gabe that all this whining for money for Haiti has gone too far and become begging, so they just need to shutup? Have you let him know his family has all the money they'll need to pull through this if they'd just grow a set? If he balks, tell him that since you know a Haitian and are over 38 you're now an expert on what the country needs to pull through this mess.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:39 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Not good but not as big of a change as it might appear.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:08 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sam I Am View Post
Perhaps in short this (^^^^) is part of what MDP was saying.

I don't think, and correct me if I'm wrong, he was saying there was anything wrong with what the Red Cross is doing; but rather, what other religious groups are doing in the wake of this disaster. Using the earthquake as a way to make us cough up money and then holding part of the proceeds as profits for their own wallets. Another part of the money to spread/preach their beliefs. And then come up short on the actual cause...

Also, I believe he said something along the lines of: it took the religous groups a disaster to get in there and help, when shit hit the fan along time ago and no one came in earlier to really help.

If that's what MDP was saying....then I guess I have to agree.
In a sense I agree with this too, the Red Cross has far less blood donors when not in a crisis and I assume less money as well. I too would like to see the percentages of the religious groups and how exactly the money is used.
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:57 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Not that I like to go off topic But true or false...
The money you speak of ...is always their correct?? In other words The federal govt issues money to the state. the state collects money from us in a variety of ways...btw you cig smokers add another $1.00 to your pack of cigs...all that money is coming to the state.Ohhh and you soda drinkers. Patterson wants another tax on that to bring money into the state.
This reminds me of the time you thought you had a zinger on Patterson when someone from your area screamed something at him about Schumann showing up for work in the midst of the state legislature debacle.... You said the whole crowd erupted in laughter, everyone was cheering for the guy who screamed it and mocking Patterson.... And nobody in the crowd even realized that Schumann is actually a Federal senator and had been showing up for work all along. Good zinger. You showed him.

Are we talking Federal dollars or State dollars here? You guys up there do realize that the NYS and Federal governments are two different entities, correct?
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Now that money needs to be distributed and in fact it does. True most of it stays down your way and for valid reasons. There are more people who live there with multiple bridges and roads that take a heavy beating etc.
Don't forget more people paying more tax money... you left that part out.

So if downstate gets all its money for valid reasons, why are you guys begging for money in the first place? Why did you go off on your HUGE rant in another topic about how downstate is always stealing from upstate?
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You come up my way, life is more relaxing.
If you insist. But what does relaxation have to do with revenue distribution?
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But non the less what your talking about is "Lobbying" not "Begging" because their is and always is a pool of money "designated" and "collected" for "Dispersement" across the "entire" state in this case...and in order to get your portion you have to "lobby". Thats what local politicans do...they "lobby" they dont "beg".
OK, so let me get this straight. Since there wasn't a pool of money and a political system set up specifically to aid Haiti, it's begging. However, if the continued requests from upstates to take money away from downstaters who have it for a valid reason happen so often, for so long, and so incessantly that it becomes institutionalized begging, it's no longer begging then, it becomes lobbying?
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They dont have TV shows and commercials saying send money our way...they do it as part of our "Political" System.
You should see the billboard sign I see whenever I drive across the river in Albany. You know, the one from unshackleupstate that has a picture of a fat guy with a black eye and whines about being sucker-punched. Real political. But I'm sure you've got some srt of convoluted non-logic to justify that too.
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Now show me other than this tragedy where the "designated", "collected" and "disbursements" of money by the Hatian govt that goes to the "entire" country and the people of haiti..show me that money....
I repeat: Since there wasn't a pool of money and a political system set up specifically to aid Haiti, it's begging. However, if the continued requests from upstates to take money away from downstaters who have it for a valid reason happen so often, for so long, and so incessantly that it becomes institutionalized begging, it's no longer begging then, it becomes lobbying?
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Yet they do notthing but line the elite leaders pockets with it and let the people starve.
Well if that isn't the best reason yet you've offered to NOT donate money to Haiti, I'll eat my shoe.

So, did you print off your post about the Haiti relief effort being begging yet and show it to your beloved Gabe through whom you share some sort of special bond with Haiti because you're over 38? Lemme know what he says when you do.
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Old 01-22-2010, 11:49 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mpdsnowman View Post
Where in any of this have I said NOT to donate money.
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Originally Posted by mpdsnowman View Post
There is plenty of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to get what is necessary to these people of Hatie.
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There is enough money.
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And yes their is a big difference between Politcal Lobbying...and begging as a result of a tragedy...big difference.
Of course you see a difference. If you didn't, you wouldn't be able to call Haiti needing money as begging and Upstate needing money as not begging.
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We cant help it if you live in an area that is overpopulated and overpriced, people dont really get along with one another and the cost of living including your tax base is way way way out of whack!
Nobody's asking you to help it, just to stop distorting facts and begging... I mean lobbying for money that isn't yours.
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The land property tax I pay alone in Columbia County for 200 aces of nothing but prime hunting land (which I dont even hunt) is ridiculous. I pay more taxes on that piece of property alone than I do for my property up here...
We cant help it if you own land in an area that is overpopulated and overpriced.
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And as far as me being over 38 you shouldnt be offended.
Wait. I was offended? Why the hell am I never told about things like this??!!
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So dont get offended One day when your old like me you will have lived thru times that younger people didnt and they may not have the insight that you have.
Or they can do something really wild like read up on it and know more than me on a particular subject, giving them more insight than I had from watching television.
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