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Old 04-07-2010, 09:15 AM   #21 (permalink)
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thats terrible. i think i may submit this to my local news station.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by snowjeeper View Post
"into a war zone."


as said by the ground forces evaluating the damage from a helicopter mounted canon that mowed down a bunch of civilians and 2 children inside of a minivan.

Stay classy.

WIKILEAKS VIDEO OUT. "classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff." US Intelligence covered-up the murders and tried to stop this vide
what the guy said about the kids is still bothering me...
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:23 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Simmer down......

Not arguing with you one bit about your points so don`t get pissed. Situations like this are why we must avoid war at all costs. I repeat what I said; I am not blaming the soldiers here for the very reasons you elucidate. Clearly, horrible mistakes happen and when those mistakes happen, we as a nation get held accountable and that fuels anti American sentiment. You are never going to use your logic to convince the families of the victims of these mistakes of the "innocence" of the mistake. These "mistakes" generate the hatred and terrorism.

Step back from your "front line troop mentality" and grasp the bigger picture here. None of these "mistakes" would have ever happened if we did not have corrupt politicians sending our military into places we never should have been in the first place.
I wasn't angry at what anyone said on here, I was just upset that there is soo much anger being generated towards the soldiers that were doing their job and looking out for number one in a warzone with limited information and having to make decisions that compromise our image as a nation. IMO they made the right decision and it saddens me that people only see the result and don't look at the broad picture.

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Originally Posted by InfiniteEclipse View Post
"COME ON! Let us shoot!"... lol, you cowboys you

what I saw was what appeared to be unarmed civilians helping an unarmed individual in a residential neighborhood...There didn't appear to be any cause for the troops to feel threatened to let it rip like that.

Obviously I'm not in the military to have a balanced perspective, but shoot first apologize later smells like bull
This whole war has been fought primarily in residential neighborhoods, that doesn't make everybody in the zone a civilian. They don't dress differently, and those "cameras" can easily be misconstrued as weapons, as they were. Our soldiers thought they had RPG's, which sure as hell would have been a threat to them. Please, as if shoot first apologize later isn't the mentality of any war throughout history...

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Originally Posted by yusoweird View Post
bad resolution on the view is not an excuse isn't it? was that the best camera they can afford to put into the apache? i know it is war, but that whole thing was executed poorly... another thing, would you walk around casually like that in a hot spot with AKs and RPG? especially gather in a group like that so the apache can take all of them out? poor judgement in my opinion...
You're right, it's not an excuse, it's a reason. I think it was executed failry well, our soldiers weren't harmed and the threat was neutralized. Sure, the end result was that they were civilians but in the moment, based on what they saw, those were insurgents. I do fell sorrow for what happend, but I hate that the blame is put on our soldiers.

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Originally Posted by Zee View Post
How anyone can defend this is baffling to me. It like defending 9-11.
Open your mind and read what we are saying. I can't believe you are comparing me defending our troops decisions, to a religious extremest group's decision to hijack a couple of airliners and crash them into several buildings. The perpetrators of 9/11 condemned the people innocent civilians on the airlines, as the people going to work, not to mention the children who were in a daycare in the same buildings. What they did is so heinous, it's offensive that you even compared one to the other.

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Originally Posted by InfiniteEclipse View Post
coming home

lol sorry couldn't resist
I agree, I'd rather have our troops come home too. But while they are there, they are gonna do their jobs.

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thats terrible. i think i may submit this to my local news station.
Submit it to your local news? For what purpose? It's allready starting to blow up on the global news, I'm sure they are aware.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:34 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I think all the outrage over this is bullshit. In the video, it was not obvious that they were civilians. There is no way one could tell whether or not those were RPG's or AK's. It's a fucking war. With that video quality there is no way you can tell me that those didn't look like guns or rocket launchers. Shit happens, good and bad, it just so turns out that this was a particularly bad incident. How are you supposed to tell the difference between an insurgent or a civilian from a pov such as their's? If I were in there position I would have done the same, if it they looked like insurgents, then hell, I'd fire too.
you have got be kidding. if those soldiers actually did their job they would have properly surveyed those people with a complete encirclement using the lens that offered the closest viewpoint.. as it would have been much clearer coming up the back and around the right of the first two guys as to what exactly was slung over their shoulders. the third guy was admittedly suspicious-looking but again, taking a little more time with surveillance could have helped. those guys were absolutely not hostile and were possibly unaware of the presence of the helicopter. how it could be claimed that they were setting up an rpg to fire when at that particular point their view was almost entirely blocked by a courtyard wall is beyond me.

anywho, it is clear as hell the first two were not carrying AK-47s as was alleged. an AK-47 is pretty distinctive weapon and their cameras bared no resemblance whatsoever.

Quote:
When that van showed up and started helping the wounded and gathering the dead, why wouldn't they fire on them? If they had been insurgents that were initially fired on, I sure as hell would assume the people in the van were insurgents as well. Based on the footage from the video it is in no way clear that those were children in the van. And don't even begin to tell me that you clearly saw children because that is straight bullshit. Yes, it's unfortunate children and innocent civilians were injured and killed.
how about an understanding of Islamic custom for starters? in Islam the dead must be buried by sunset on the same day. the bodies have to be recovered quickly so they can be returned to the families, cleansed, etc for burial. it's been a common sight in Iraq and Afghanistan of civilians coming out to retrieve dead bodies in the aftermath of a battle.

Quote:
But when it comes to life and death situations, you better believe their ass will be grass and not our troops'. IMHO our soldiers' actions in this situation were not unfounded. Sure some of their comments were snide and classless, but remember, they thought they had engaged the enemy. Why should they hold their tongues' about assholes that are out to get them? Again, it is really unfortunate that innocent children and adults lost life and limb.
yea and situations like this only serve to reinforce the stereotype of the US army as a bunch of gung-ho rednecks whose only rules of engagement amounts to "shoot first, ask questions later" while completely undermining the hearts and minds effort and handing the extremist a propaganda coup.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:35 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tomtom88 View Post


Open your mind and read what we are saying. I can't believe you are comparing me defending our troops decisions, to a religious extremest group's decision to hijack a couple of airliners and crash them into several buildings. The perpetrators of 9/11 condemned the people innocent civilians on the airlines, as the people going to work, not to mention the children who were in a daycare in the same buildings. What they did is so heinous, it's offensive that you even compared one to the other.

Because invading another country and killing thousands of innocent civilians and children is somehow morally superior? In pure numbers sense, what the United States did in Iraq is substantially more heinous than 9/11.

Iraq Body Count

Both sides make their arguments for justification of killing innocent civilians, and both sides are fundamentally wrong and morally bankrupt. Just because the methods are different does not make one side better than the other. The glory and honor of war is a juvenile concept.

All I see is an unholy alliance between AQ extremists (9/11) and American extremists (Iraq invasion) to maintain whatever fear and conflict so that the Military Industrial Complex can loot them American people and line their own pockets while preaching freedom and democracy.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
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^^^ exactly.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Yeah you're right..let's blame the camera resolution. Too bad no one invented a binocular yet...can't see if it's an RPG or a camera? Shoot them anyway...and shoot the guys retrieving the bodies too since you're at it...

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Originally Posted by rgrwilco View Post
i can see both sides. but why would you bring children to an area that was hot a few moments before?

soldiers are fighting a war where housewives are blowing themselves up to kill them. the enemy is mostly plain clothed civilians. mistakes will be made. its a tragedy, but im not going to blame our soldiers one bit. i believe this war was wrong, but its a war nonetheless. shit happens. they are seeing the ground through a shitty res tv, a camera can look like a gun.

it shouldnt of been covered up. whatever.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:45 PM   #28 (permalink)
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the problem isn't their actions, but their attitudes, as well as the governments now failed attempt to cover up what happened. and the fact that we never should have been there in the first place.
Best post in this thread.
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:39 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Because invading another country and killing thousands of innocent civilians and children is somehow morally superior? In pure numbers sense, what the United States did in Iraq is substantially more heinous than 9/11.

Iraq Body Count

Both sides make their arguments for justification of killing innocent civilians, and both sides are fundamentally wrong and morally bankrupt. Just because the methods are different does not make one side better than the other. The glory and honor of war is a juvenile concept.

All I see is an unholy alliance between AQ extremists (9/11) and American extremists (Iraq invasion) to maintain whatever fear and conflict so that the Military Industrial Complex can loot them American people and line their own pockets while preaching freedom and democracy.

Nope. This is the best post.
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Old 04-08-2010, 04:16 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tomtom88 View Post
I wasn't angry at what anyone said on here, I was just upset that there is soo much anger being generated towards the soldiers that were doing their job and looking out for number one in a warzone with limited information and having to make decisions that compromise our image as a nation. IMO they made the right decision and it saddens me that people only see the result and don't look at the broad picture.



This whole war has been fought primarily in residential neighborhoods, that doesn't make everybody in the zone a civilian. They don't dress differently, and those "cameras" can easily be misconstrued as weapons, as they were. Our soldiers thought they had RPG's, which sure as hell would have been a threat to them. Please, as if shoot first apologize later isn't the mentality of any war throughout history...



You're right, it's not an excuse, it's a reason. I think it was executed failry well, our soldiers weren't harmed and the threat was neutralized. Sure, the end result was that they were civilians but in the moment, based on what they saw, those were insurgents. I do fell sorrow for what happend, but I hate that the blame is put on our soldiers.



Open your mind and read what we are saying. I can't believe you are comparing me defending our troops decisions, to a religious extremest group's decision to hijack a couple of airliners and crash them into several buildings. The perpetrators of 9/11 condemned the people innocent civilians on the airlines, as the people going to work, not to mention the children who were in a daycare in the same buildings. What they did is so heinous, it's offensive that you even compared one to the other.



I agree, I'd rather have our troops come home too. But while they are there, they are gonna do their jobs.



Submit it to your local news? For what purpose? It's allready starting to blow up on the global news, I'm sure they are aware.
First of all, just because they are our troops doesn't mean that they are doing "their jobs." Don't make that assumption. They were clearly trigger happy and ready to fire at anything that moves. People respect the troops, but only when they are doing their job CORRECTLY. There is a big difference there.

You want a perfect country? Don't just fucking say "o well" when you make a mistake. You fix it. What happen if that group were Americans and they just gunned them down because of bad resolution on the camera? It will be a different story then huh? Will you just say "o well?" You clearly don't understand the fact that a mistake should not be let go just because it is our troops. It must be looked into and fixed.

I don't know about you, but I want a perfect country. I will complain about every mistake that anyone makes. I won't just let it go like you.. just think about why the video was leaked in the first. It is because something was done WRONG and someone inside wanted it fixed. And I am glad that it was leaked so we can fix it instead of hiding it to the world and forgetting about it.

This is like if you had a burglar come into your house, you shot them without your glasses on thinking you were threatened, then it turns out to be your family member. You wouldn't just say "o well" would you? Shoot first say sorry later right? It's a reason right? No, I think it is more of an excuse at the end.

I respect that you support our troops, but you are really slowing down perfecting our country by thinking that things were done right and letting it go. We are not overreacting...

Last edited by yusoweird; 04-08-2010 at 05:08 AM.
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