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post #41 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 12:16 PM Thread Starter
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So lack of government intervention prevented Andrew Carnegie, Jay Gould, J. P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt from becoming robber barons? Sorry mang, but the past is the best predictor of the future, and the past shows that the free market is not a phenomenon based in reality.

I'm not saying that the government doesn't prop up corporate monopolies, because it does. But just that the protections that government regulations provide are completely necessary.
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post #42 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by snowjeeper View Post
So lack of government intervention prevented Andrew Carnegie, Jay Gould, J. P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt from becoming robber barons? Sorry man, but the past is the best predictor of the future, and the past shows that the free market is not a phenomenon based in reality.
There never was a free market of the sort that Long, Carson, etc., advocate. I believe I pointed this out above - if not, I apologize for whatever confusion that omission has caused.

I say: "A free market didn't exist, so it's absolutely fucktarded to blame 'the free market' on things like this, or it's absolutely fucktarded to say that 'a free market couldn't handle things like this'." To these arguments, you can't say "A free market didn't exist."

I know this. It's critical to the arguments I made. It is not actually an objection to any of the arguments I've raised or cited above - all of which are kind of predicated upon that very same point of fact. You can't use the fact that governments and corporations have historically suppressed a free market, as evidence that a free market (or something more resembling one) is not a realistic possibility.

That said, the history of federal anti-trust law in the US is at best a mixed bag. For example, in the landmark Standard Oil case, the economic facts were not even considered by the court.

These facts change the story, significantly. Dominick Armentano has literally written a book on anti-trust & monopoly, citing many of the "landmark" cases in the 20th century - he gives a neat little summary here:
Quote:
The little-known truth is that when the government took Standard Oil to court in 1907, Standard Oil's market share had been declining for a decade ... [from approximately 90% to only 64%] at the time of trial. Moreover, there were at least 147 other domestic oil-refining competitors in the market and some of these were large, vertically integrated firms such as Texaco, Gulf Oil, and Sun. Kerosene outputs had expanded enormously (contrary to usual monopolistic conduct); and prices for kerosene had fallen from more than $2 per gallon in the early 1860s to approximately six cents per gallon at the time of the trial. So much for the myth of the Standard Oil "monopoly".
Competition was rampant, market share was falling, and the firm enjoyed no apparent price-setting power. The three characteristics of monopoly are all strangely absent.

If you read the book (Anti-trust & Monopoly: Anatomy of a Policy Failure), it's the same pattern with Alcoa, Sherman, etc., all through the 20th century. Kind of eye-opening, actually.

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I'm not saying that the government doesn't prop up corporate monopolies, because it does. But just that the protections that government regulations provide are completely necessary.
From the last comment I conclude that although you asked for some 'proof', you didn't actually read any of the arguments to which I linked, and that you might not have even read the blockquotes I included in my last post here.

Thanks for playing.


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post #43 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Well for one thing I did read your block quotes, but I don't trust a source such as CATO just like I wouldn't trust fox news as a source.
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post #44 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-15-2010, 12:47 AM Thread Starter
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but dont get me wrong, i think that the magical freemarket would be wonderful, just like the magical socialsim would be.

one thing that i have come to appreciate about libertarians... they make liberals look grounded in reality.
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post #45 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-15-2010, 08:20 AM
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Well for one thing I did read your block quotes, but I don't trust a source such as CATO just like I wouldn't trust fox news as a source.
sorry to go off topic, but you wouldn't trust Fox news as a source but rather CNN, MSNBC, and other liberal media outlets? No one does any honest reporting any more, all media outlets slant it one way or another to help their goal or view.

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post #46 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-15-2010, 08:57 AM
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But it wasn't a news piece, it was an argument. So, the fact that it happened to be posted at a CATO owned website does not (in any way) detract from the arguments made within, which should be judged on their own merits & logic. Maybe you think Long is incorrect, but that has absolutely zero to do with the fact that the essay was posted at CATO



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post #47 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-15-2010, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
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I don't particularly care for CNN, and I've never honestly even seen msnbc or been to their website. But CNN isn't full of complete bullshit like fox is. CNN just is completely worthless news, they don't report on anything but fluff.
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post #48 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-15-2010, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
Well Tony, there is some truth to what you say here, but you also must understand that some media are more agenda driven than others. It has been proven time and again that Fox is the least fact driven and in fact, Rupert Murdoch openly admits to an extreme right slant. MSNBC is admittedly a counter balance to Fox`s agenda with shows like Ed Schultz, Jon Stewart and Rachel Maddow. I also dissagree that CNN , NBC, CBS, ABC etc are "liberal media" While their anchors may have a liberal preference, these media giants have a corporate agenda. As such, they will slant their reporting in a way that benefits their corporate overloads. NBC is part of Time -Warner who is a big partner with General Electric. GE, has its hands deeply in the "defense" industry and the manufacture and sale of arms around the globe. As a subsidiary of such a giant, you can bet your boots that these media outlets are going to promote the war in Iraq and anywhere else America is involved in conflict.

What I try to do is listen the the media that has my political point of view such as MSNBC. I freely admit that just as you will tend to want to watch news that is more aligned with your political views. But, I do not stop there; I also will switch to Fox and see what their spin is on a story, then go to the other outlets. Finally, I will turn to independent media and the media from outside the country. Once this is done, I have a very well rounded perspective on the issue. Since truth almost always lies somewhere in the middle, that is where I tend to base my opinions on a particular topic.
i do the same thing, i watch fox, but also check out several other media outlets that slant a different way from the right. While i do watch fox, they do not represent my entire view point.

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