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Old 08-04-2010, 01:13 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I apologize. I have barged into your community without even introducing myself.
Let me correct this.

My name is Jonathan. I'm 22 years old. Born and raised in Israel.
5 months ago I have concluded my 3 year service in the Israeli Navy as a medical team instructor.

You are right, I cannot consider myself the spokesman for all of Israel, because as in any free and democratic country, there are many, many different opinions.
I consider myself a social-democrat-left-winger. How did I come up with that you ask? Being pro-Israel doesn't mean I'm a right wing fanatic.
Naturally I have a lot, and I mean a lot of criticism against my government, and I am doing my best to make a difference by being active in a young and fresh movement that's trying to change things for the best.

Now let me get back to the discussion at hand.

Quote:
Just as wrong as when Israel bombed hospitals in Lebanon? Just as wrong as when IDF troops open fire on an unarmed Palestinian child? Both sides of this conflict are guilty of committing inexcusable atrocities; the difference here is we condemn both sides when they do this shit, while you are an apologist for Israel who seems to turn a blind eye to the wrongs done by their government. Who really has the double standard here?
I agree, atrocities should be condemned, and believe it or not, they are.
The big difference, and I guess you're just gonna have to trust me on this, is that the IDF NEVER deliberately targets women, children, hospitals, schools etc. That is exactly the reason why Palestinian insurgents chose to hide and fight from within innocent civilian houses, schools, hospitals and so on.
In the last large scale conflict in January of 2009 there have been undertaken tremendous measures to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible.
When unnecessary and illegal things happen, Israel is the first to investigate the matter:
IDF to charge soldier with killing two Palestinian women during Gaza war - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
On the other side, the Palestinians commonly target the civilian community as its main objective, i.e. the missiles being fired into Sderot and its surroundings.

Quote:
You are being deliberately obtuse in your removing this comment from the context in which I wrote it. The remainder of the sentence I wrote elucidates the exact context in which I was speaking. My point, which was quite clear, was that Israel is like any country or entity in that it sometimes does bad things. Even the most noble cause can create aberrations which are evil in the process. It is the duty of an ally such as the United states to offer constructive criticism when a friend goes astray.
I misunderstood you. I completely agree with you on this.

Quote:
As for Israel being the "only" democratic state in the region, this is not entirely true. Even Israel does not enjoy "democracy" as western nations do. Israel is more closely a "democratic theocracy". In addition, Iran had a thriving democracy until 1953 when the United States and Great Brittan overthrew it in Operation Ajax and installed the bloody dictator The Shah. It might surprise you to learn that outside of Israel, the largest community of Jews resides peacefully in Tehran, Iran!
You should check your sources.
Israel is a social democracy. Sadly less social for the past decade, but still a democracy.
The Israeli law is well above any biblical law. I don't know where you got the idea that Israel is a theocracy. Oh and I enjoy the freedom of democracy as I would in Germany, France or the US.
The fact the Iran was once a democracy is irrelevant.
It might surprise you to learn that the largest Jewish community is in the USA (about 18.5 million), the second largest is in Israel with 5.6 million, and Iran is in 21st place with 75,000.
Jewish population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Due in large part because despite your opinion otherwise, the world community is not anti Israel and would help defend her. You cant seem to grasp the concept that Americans or other nations can be critical of an Israeli action and still "support" Israel. That has been our point to you all along but you are too blinded by your myopic view of the world to think outside your itty bitty little box.
I beg to differ. The world, and by that I mainly mean the world press, are very trigger happy with condemning Israel. Take the latest scandal with the so-called peace flotilla.
I'm guessing the picture you saw was Israeli commandos raiding poor peace activists and shooting several of them to death.
First of all here are a few quotes from the "peace activists" :‘Peace Flotilla’ Passengers Told Israelis: ‘Go Back to Auschwitz, Remember 9/11′ - Iain Martin - WSJ

I'll admit that Israel handled the whole thing like idiots. BUT the main purpose of the flotilla was definitely NOT providing aid, but rather a publicity stunt, which worked marvelously.
Just so you know, most of the medical supplies on the Mavi Marmara was expired.

From my own experience in the Navy, Israel stops for inspection many ships and boats. Those carrying humanitarian supplies are welcomed into the port of Ashdod, and from there, after inspection, the aid is trucked to Gaza.
The so-called peace flotilla would have lost their edge had they gone the peaceful way, so they didn't.
They waited for the commandos with metal rods and knifes, while the soldiers boarded the ship with paint guns, and pistols only as a backup.
httphttp://www.abc.net.au/news/stori...01/2915586.htm
After being violently attacked, they resorted to self defense. When commandos self-defend, they do it all out. Can't blame them.
I completely agree that raiding that ship was just playing into their hands, but holding Israel fully responsible for what happened there is just hypocritical.
Stop the hypocrisy about Israel - CNN.com

Quote:
Israel to expel 400 children
That is horrible, and I feel ashamed of my government.
Israel is facing a major problem with illegal immigrants. I'm not talking about the ones that have been brought here on purpose, but about the ones that are infiltrating through the Egyptian border mainly from Sudan and Eritrea. The piece of land we have here is tiny. We don't have the facilities or the money to be able to integrate all of them.
I strongly oppose their expulsion back to the horrible conditions they came from, but I do believe Israel has to do something the keep them from infiltrating. And not the Egyptian way of just shooting them when they manage to spot them.

Quote:
Israel keeps pounding Gaza, hits children's hospital
The source of this article is completely biased.
Quote:
Press TV takes revolutionary steps as the first Iranian international news network, broadcasting in English on a round-the-clock basis.
Just from the language used one can tell their not objective
Quote:
Israel's deadly military onslaught..
It wasn't a deadly onslaught, it was war. The measures taken to avoid civilian casualties were incredible.

Again, from my personal experience, Israel NEVER targets hospitals. Then again, when rockets are being fired out of hospitals into Israel, there are exceptions. Is it right? I guess not, then again, Israel is the ONLY country that drops leaflets saying the area will be bombed several hours before actually attacking it, in order to give the civilian population enough time to clear the area.
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:14 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Just an additional comment on Jon K`s assertion about what a great ally we have in Israel.....tell that to the families of the crew killed on the U.S.S. Liberty when On June 8, 1967, when Israel attacked our naval ship—the USS Liberty—killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 172!
You must remember this happened in the midst of the Six Day War. From what I have learned, this was a terrible mistake. I would put this under "Fog of war".
You will probably cry "conspiracy!" but I gather the US government understood that this was a horrible mistake and therefore never launched a Congressional investigation.
Answer me this: what would Israel gain by attacking a US ship? I honestly can't come up with an explanation.
I have taken part in a joint Israel and US naval exercise with the USS Big Horn, and we had a great time together and learned a lot about each other's medical techniques and much more.

Quote:
The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli Air Force jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats, on June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War.[2] The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and one civilian), wounded 170 crew members, and severely damaged the ship.[3] At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish[1] .[4]
Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the identity of the USS Liberty.[5] Some survivors, in addition to some U.S. diplomats and intelligence officials involved in the incident continue to dispute these official findings, saying the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not a mistake,[6] and it remains the only major maritime incident in U.S. history not to be investigated by the U.S. Congress.[7]
In May 1968, the Israeli government paid US$3,323,500 as full payment to the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969, Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980, it agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the U.S. claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.[8]
On December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes.[9]

From USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In conclusion of this mega-post, all I'm saying is that the blind demonisation of Israel is wrong.
Critique is important, but it has to be balanced.
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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have any of us shown blind demonisation? I am american, but I know when my country is wrong, and does the wrong thing.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:40 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jon K View Post
I'm saying that the blind demonisation of Israel is wrong.
I completely agree.

However, any criticism of Israel is based largely upon their overt and disproportionate use of violence upon a neighbouring, civilian population, which remains clear for all to see.

In fact, such wanton murder and land grabbing has been to such an extent, that to suggest it is at all reasonable, is to invite allegations of blind complicity.

Mr K, i would respectfully suggest that it is not the critics of Israel who are 'blind' to what is arising there.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Jon K let me call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance for you. Poor innocent isreal. Not doing anything to anyone and everyone is against us. blah friggin blah
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:32 PM   #26 (permalink)
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we of intellect welcome criticism of our country in the US, because it deserves it. To criticize is to improve.
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:50 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by snowjeeper View Post
both states are terrorists, fighting an un-winnable battle.
This whole conflict reeks of the "he started it!" bullshit. Not only actions but attitudes as well. Lets throw rocks at them, maybe it will solve things. Hello, the 18th century is calling, they want their weapons back. The extremist groups need to evolve with the rest of us and learn to co-exist, right now both sides are an embarrassment to the planet. Both sides are terrorists.
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:45 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roremc View Post
Jon K let me call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance for you. Poor innocent isreal. Not doing anything to anyone and everyone is against us. blah friggin blah
I really don't see the point of this post. If you were talking about Jon K's first posts, then that would make sense (no offense Jon K, but you didn't come off very well to begin with).

I feel that posting this in response to his most recent post, however, is pretty infantile. He actually put thought behind his post, even if it is (or you/me/snowolf's grandmother think) it's wrong. If you do think it's wrong, then actually put some thought behind your post and post some reasons.

I definitely feel that in America it's a bit more balanced as to the whole Israel: Good or Bad? issue. Perfect? Coverage never is. But in the Middle East though, it can (and does) get pretty bad. Hamas using a mickey mouse clone to promote fear and hatred of the Israelis among children reeks pretty badly to me.

At the same time, putting arial footage of an Israeli commando using an enemy as a body shield against a thrown grenade (while pretty damn badass) on Israeli TV probably isn't the best PR move for a peaceful Israel...
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Old 08-07-2010, 12:15 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jon K View Post

I agree, atrocities should be condemned, and believe it or not, they are.
The big difference, and I guess you're just gonna have to trust me on this, is that the IDF NEVER deliberately targets women, children, hospitals, schools etc.
Unfortunately I can't trust you on that when you look at Israel's use of cluster bomb munitions, especially in the conflict with Lebanon where they blanketed a civilian neighbourhood. Have you even considered that issue?

Just one of many articles easily available.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-comm...banon-1.197099

I agree with all the points Snow has made, both sides are complicit in all kinds of heinous acts and looking back further than just the recent incident quoted in the OP's article, both sides can point all their nations fingers at each other.

Although I did get a chuckle out of you're completely naive statement of "Unprovoked". History is the provocation.
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:15 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Snowfox View Post
I really don't see the point of this post. If you were talking about Jon K's first posts, then that would make sense (no offense Jon K, but you didn't come off very well to begin with).

I feel that posting this in response to his most recent post, however, is pretty infantile. He actually put thought behind his post, even if it is (or you/me/snowolf's grandmother think) it's wrong. If you do think it's wrong, then actually put some thought behind your post and post some reasons.

I definitely feel that in America it's a bit more balanced as to the whole Israel: Good or Bad? issue. Perfect? Coverage never is. But in the Middle East though, it can (and does) get pretty bad. Hamas using a mickey mouse clone to promote fear and hatred of the Israelis among children reeks pretty badly to me.

At the same time, putting arial footage of an Israeli commando using an enemy as a body shield against a thrown grenade (while pretty damn badass) on Israeli TV probably isn't the best PR move for a peaceful Israel...
Yep directed at his first post.

As for the country. It its totally broken. If the US stepped away it would be all over very quickly.

As an Australian they lost me forever earlier this year when Israeli Mossad agents forged Australian passports to get some of their agents into Dubai to assassinate a Homass leader. Unfortunately Australia has been a long time supporter of Isreal and they still do this to our country! Thats how you treat your allies? (UK passports were also forged)
Israel Faked Australian Passports In Hamas Assassination: Smith
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