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Old 10-04-2010, 09:48 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mpdsnowman View Post
Ahhhh yes the scientific method...created by an imperfect being...the human...
as was their god
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:59 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I will however give religion credit for helping kick-start human civilization.
The Egyptians and Incas had their gods. So much for their civilisations. :P

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It made people follow a set of rules and have a conscious beyond eat-sleep-kill.
Are you sure? Such rules actually promote opposition to organised religion. If anything, the 'eat-sleep-kill' mantra is heralded by many religious text; "Onward Christian soldier"!

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It created the whole "Family" and "Clan" structures and helped take away the chaos of anyone just walking into your ho-ho-hut and killing you for food and possessions because that would simply just be animalistic survival.
There is irrefutable evidence that such a 'structure' is inheritable through 'animalistic survival' rather than thanks to organsied god fearing. unless you wish to suggest apes and wolves have found god?

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I feel that Religion has the power to do good, just as Science does, but humans being given consciousness and free-will will always manipulate both for their own objectives.

In the end, it's not so much the application but the applicator: Shitty Humans.
You are apologetic for your overall opinion that religion is a bad concept and to justify this, you have made a few limp, pro-religion comments which were not tough to dismiss.

Do not perceive me as being critical of you in this. I appreciate that condemnation of the servants of god is a fretful and rewardless pass time. But find strength to say it as it is... religion is a bag of bollocks.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:17 AM   #23 (permalink)
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When was the last war conducted in the name of religion ?




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Old 10-04-2010, 10:37 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Paulo, when you look at the end product of any of the civilizations, they were at the point where religion was used to manipulate people into destroying themselves or others because there was a concentrated seat of power commanding such, (AKA the pope, Egyptian King/Queen). If you try and look back to when it started however, you will find that although it still was a means of manipulating people, it was to an end that made them have to live with each other everyday and not cause constant conflict within society. It created stability within a population which is what is required to have civilization. Once a society rises to the complexity of having leaders and dictators however, the people with power can automatically use the said religion to their advantage because they hold the position to make everyone do what they want. and by representing some unknown holy power being, you are all the more convincing then if you just told them it was your own will.

As a theory being tested in science, of course religion is a bag of bullocks. It's a big fat crock of shit, nothing about it says it could possibly be a factual concept.

The point I want to make though is that Religion does do good things in the world, and it spreads positive morals and makes people often better at dealing with other human beings and forgiving their mistakes and making society more livable. It also does the exact opposite, it makes people hate and kill each other over made up fairy tales.

All I'm saying is that extremists have the potential to take ANY medium and use it to fuck things up. They can use science as well. Instead of bitching about how religion is fucking everything up, I want to bitch about how weak and pathetic human beings who make horrible life choices and lack any clear sign of intelligence fuck things up. Religion is just a popular medium for doing this.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:47 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Is that your opinion or the authors ? What do you know about the study to offer that opinion ? Unless you are a author or helped design/conduct the study - your opinion is invalid.
Wouldn't that make your opinion invalid too?

And if the study says nothing about the nature of god, isn't it a reasonable assumption that it didn't intend to? Especially since any study trying to pretend to any level of scientific accuracy would of necessity stay strictly away from unfalsifiable questions like that?

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I believe religion was in context of the study
Believe whatever you want, but the article clearly said that KNOWLEDGE of religion was the point. In fact, the article was pretty explicit about what was being studied, so your objections look more like argument-by-sarcasm than anything else.

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God has and is and always existed outside of religion
Prove it.

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God since "He is" (de facto).
Prove it.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:52 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Well it goes to show ignorant the question really was... Please enlighten me O' wise one - what was the last war conducted whereby war is justifiable on religious grounds or by religious differences ?

I am not inferring to cultural/ historical differences between countries or races which giving the often misleading impression that the conflict is primarily about religion or the differences in belief (ie Northern Ireland ( Catholics ) and the other Unionist (Protestants) to the Republic of Ireland or the United Kingdom and while religion played a thinly disguised role as a cultural marker.

Btw, please don't attempt to use Islam attacks. That is quite obvious that was not a attack on Christianity (World Trade Center) and thats if you play along and say America is a Christian nation (it is not).

So please do tell- the last war justified on religious grounds or by religious differences?
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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So please do tell- the last war justified on religious grounds or by religious differences?
A variety of middle eastern religious clans vs., Well, a variety of middle eastern religious clans. It's been going on for thousands of years.

It may not be a "We have declared religious war on your country, now send the military" but the fact is they hate each other and will continue to hate each other over teeny weeny differences. Once again I can say it's just extremists, but in the short-past leaders have followed these views as well.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:13 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Wouldn't that make your opinion invalid too?

And if the study says nothing about the nature of god, isn't it a reasonable assumption that it didn't intend to? Especially since any study trying to pretend to any level of scientific accuracy would of necessity stay strictly away from unfalsifiable questions like that?



Believe whatever you want, but the article clearly said that KNOWLEDGE of religion was the point. In fact, the article was pretty explicit about what was being studied, so your objections look more like argument-by-sarcasm than anything else.
- God is anything but religious - think you missed that.
- If you are make a study based on a point- its not a bad idea to define it before you get started. You missed that point also.

In regards to the rest - go outside and take at look - it i quite obvious or at least to me - that this was designed and created.

The fool says in his heart,
I would like to suggest the bigger fool admits “There is no God” publicly.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:23 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HoboMaster View Post
The point I want to make though is that Religion does do good things in the world, and it spreads positive morals and makes people often better at dealing with other human beings and forgiving their mistakes and making society more livable. It also does the exact opposite, it makes people hate and kill each other over made up fairy tales.
When you consider the net balance of good deeds vs bad ones, you have to draw just one conclusion.

To suggest what this conclusion might be, i offer two strains of thought:

The first is the metaphor that religion is like rohypnol. For sure someone is gonna get raped before the night is over, but at least they get a free drink out of it first!

The second, is the fundamental and well founded FACT that religion has never been organised in an effort to include fellow humankind, but instead, to exclude those individuals who fail to conform to the preferred collective. Consequently, this draws light on the favouritism that benefits the minority to the logical expense of the majority. This is the foundation to any church / community / faith and as such, it inherently fails to benefit all, apart from the selected few.

The reason i am motivated to challenge your apologetic attitude to this, is that for as long as you make excuses for 'them', they are permitted to continue to do what they do. For as long as they do what they do, they will be able to recruit others to the 'flock'. And for as long as a flock enjoys such support, then extremists and politicians alike are free to presume validity through association, to continue on with their bullshit and heinous crimes against all of us.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Is that your opinion or the authors ? What do you know about the study to offer that opinion ? Unless you are a author or helped design/conduct the study - your opinion is invalid.
And as such, so is yours.

Where did the study rate answers to the questions it asked against the individual participant's definition of god or religion? Where, anywhere at all in the study, was the person asked their definition of god or religion? Where was the individual asked their religion?

It didn't. Hence, this was not part of the body of data gathered, and thus, could not be in the scope of the study.
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I would speculate you know nothing about the study or how it was conducted.
I'd speculate the same thing about you.
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Chances are I could probably come up with a couple more but I think that will suffice for the moment.
Questions are easy to come up with. Valid ones take a bit more thought.
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Btw, as usual you missed the major point. I believe religion was in context of the study since it mentioned 4 religions in the questions where as God (characteristics) were not. With that being said, the emphasis was obviously on religion and therefore biased.
Sure, religion was in the context of the survey. Again, the definition of religion was not. Therefore, you defining religion does not alter the study nor the interpretation of its results at all, which was the point I was making. Nothing more. This study was not biased at all, it asked the same questions to everyone no matter who they were, no matter if they called themselves religious or not, and no matter what sentence fragment they used to describe their own definition of god.
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(btw, this is when you come back with a really stupid comeback).
Hahaha... you're on the pre-comeback stage of forum debate degeneracy already?
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There is a quite a bit of difference between religion and God.
Nobody's arguing with this.
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God has and is and always existed outside of religion (think past, present, and future).
Your logic assumes god exists at all which you have not proven.
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Of if this helps, it is fine to make a distinction between religon and state.
Something the average American idiot seems to have more and more trouble doing every day.
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However, not God since "He is" (de facto).
God is not. And you have precisely as much concrete proof god exists as I have that he does not. Thus, by definition, you have not successfully argued for proof of god.
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