Occupy Wall Street Protest. - Page 3 - Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-04-2011, 09:45 PM   #21 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
HoboMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 2,314
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheeseForSteeze View Post
I find the idea that we need to get rid of wealth disparities (perceived or real) to be not relevant to any solution to the problem of increasing the aggregate standard of living. Do some people make a disporportionate amount of wealth compared to their contribution to society? Likely. But to suggest that some roles performed in society aren't more highly valued than others is utter nonesense. There are roles performed in society which require an elevated level of ability, experience, talent and/or just willingness to deal with stress and if there is nothing that will incentivize people to take these jobs (the ability to be compensated more richly) then who is going to choose to perform them?

It is also problematic that the centralization and cosolidation of power called for in order to mandate this universal fairness is the very same channel by which it our current system has become corrupted into a corporatist state wherein the interest of business is more important than the interest of the constiuency and of the Rule of Law.
I am not interested in Communism or anything other then capitalism. Changing our system from Capitalism is a big mistake because our entire society is held up by capitalism's specific rules.

I use the word relative with great emphasis because I do agree that in a market society some jobs require a higher skill level or ability, which denotes a more valuable job and therefor denotes a higher pay scale. The ideal of a society in perfect economic/social balance does not and cannot exist for obvious reasons.

When I use the word disparity, I mean exactly that. Not Joe Blow makes $24,000 and Ronald Mcdonald makes $250,000, but Joe Blow makes $24,000 and Ronald Mcdonald makes $46,000,000. You can live off of $24,000, Yet Ronald Mcdonald makes $45,976,000 dollars more then you. That is economic disparity on the level of Kings/Queens in castles and peasant farmers in shacks. Do we still want that kind of society?

Another point is that in a consumer economy, you need consumers buying to stimulate the economy. When you have a relatively equal wealth distribution, you have more consumer spending because of multiplying spending by a 95% population. When the wealth is concentrated in the 5%, the 5% might spend extravagantly, but their consumer spending does not come anywhere close to what the majority spends with the adequate funds because they are a tiny fraction of the pie.

I think the Golden Era (1930s-1970's) is a great representation of this because this was an era that had relatively equal wealth distribution. Those on top sure as hell made a lot more then the average citizen, but the difference was no where near what it is today, and that was reflected in the general quality of life/economic opportunity available.
__________________
PowderHound and TreeNinja

Last edited by HoboMaster; 10-04-2011 at 10:06 PM.
HoboMaster is offline  
Old 10-04-2011, 09:57 PM   #22 (permalink)
With extra cheese.
 
CheeseForSteeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,750
Default

I'll offer this. I don't think the actual ratio of their incomes is a problem but rather, the ability of each to have a decent quality of life. Keep in mind that people immigrate to this country in droves to take what we preceive as terrible jobs because it results in a drastic increase in quailty of life for those people. Now, is this reason why we shouldn't keep trying to drive progress so that our most needy continue to live better and better live? I should hope not.

The market is a pretty good mechanism for determining which jobs society values more because increased demand will be met with corresponding supply. Burton makes lots of money because people want their products. However, the reason there is such a large disparity toward corporate entities is because they have sprung up in response to supply the demand necessary for the materialistic American dream. This is just people being misinformed and duped into trading their livlihood and freedom for a 9-5 so they can leverage their personal credit (future earnings) in pursuit of the aforementioned. It's just a misinformation campaign, much like people who blindly choose Burton because they think it's good snowboard gear. People think it'll make them happy because they've been conditioned to believe so.

On that note, Burton isn't bad - it's just an example of how perception drives demand and creates disproportionalities in the market place. In fact, I even am giving their bindings a shot this season.
CheeseForSteeze is offline  
Old 10-04-2011, 10:02 PM   #23 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
C.B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern MN
Posts: 332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheeseForSteeze View Post
The ironic thing about our situation is we have a set of government established to do exactly this: the States are supposed to set precedent for things like welfare programs, education and trade regulations which, alongside being perfectly Constitutional, allows the People fine control over what kind of society they want to live in. It's just no one respects our governing document.
yeah its pretty astonishing to me, the basics for an amazingly diverse and prosperous society are all in our constitution, and yet were left with a government of two ideal pushing, loophole finding, brainwashed hypocrite parties who are dragging this country into the ground.
C.B. is offline  
Old 10-04-2011, 10:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
HoboMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 2,314
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheeseForSteeze View Post
I'll offer this. I don't think the actual ratio of their incomes is a problem but rather, the ability of each to have a decent quality of life. Keep in mind that people immigrate to this country in droves to take what we preceive as terrible jobs because it results in a drastic increase in quailty of life for those people. Now, is this reason why we shouldn't keep trying to drive progress so that our most needy continue to live better and better live? I should hope not.

The market is a pretty good mechanism for determining which jobs society values more because increased demand will be met with corresponding supply. Burton makes lots of money because people want their products. However, the reason there is such a large disparity toward corporate entities is because they have sprung up in response to supply the demand necessary for the materialistic American dream. This is just people being misinformed and duped into trading their livlihood and freedom for a 9-5 so they can leverage their personal credit (future earnings) in pursuit of the aforementioned. It's just a misinformation campaign, much like people who blindly choose Burton because they think it's good snowboard gear. People think it'll make them happy because they've been conditioned to believe so.

On that note, Burton isn't bad - it's just an example of how perception drives demand and creates disproportionalities in the market place. In fact, I even am giving their bindings a shot this season.
That's a whole discussion in itself, but totally true of the capitalistic enterprise. That idea is very much in tune with Marx's work on capitalism.
__________________
PowderHound and TreeNinja

Last edited by HoboMaster; 10-04-2011 at 10:15 PM.
HoboMaster is offline  
Old 10-04-2011, 10:25 PM   #25 (permalink)
Veteran Member
 
dreampow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Kyoto Japan
Posts: 1,211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.B. View Post
See in my mind if you get rid of disparities in wealth, your essentially creating a flat society (communism anyone?) where nobody has opportunity.
No one said the disparities have to be completely removed just a fairer distribution system (real taxing based on real wealth for example). Communism has been tried and failed IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.B. View Post
In my opinion if you have the desire and means to create wealth for yourself, then you should have every right to. But you have to pay your fair share.
Exactly. Pay your fair share and play by the same rules as everyone else, but neither of those are happening right now.
If you don't think there is unfair or underhand dealings going on you are wearing a blindfold.
Look at stock buying and selling before 9/11 or before the BP (Gulf of Mexico) oil disaster. You will find that people in the know make money on events that are very very dubious.
Iraq. Lots of taxpayer money wasted? Yes, but not if you are an arms firm or a private security firm with a juicy contract because of the war. A war started based on lies and propaganda (no weapons of mass destruction found, none whatsoever).

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.B. View Post
Lifestyle shouldn't be a government policy. If a simple minimalistic society is what you want then find others who want the same and start one. If you want 15 cars and a mansion and the means to get them, whatever its not my position to tell you how to live your life.
Nor am I telling you how you should live. No one has the right to tell others how they should live. But if you look into it you might find the US government are taking away some of those very choices. Laws on seed producing crops for example, effectively prohibiting people from small scale subsistence farming and forcing them to buy seeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.B. View Post
The whole point of this country is to have a minimalistic government where people are free to live how they choose. And here we are, stuck with retard republicans and dumbass democrats. Both of which are more concerned with trivial things than the big picture of what America should be.
If you think America has a minimalistic government or that people are truly free, I humbly suggest you take a closer look.
You have one of the most intrusive governments IMO. After 9/11 your human rights laws were destroyed in the name of "fighting terror". People can be legally detained and tortured for information if they are "suspected" of being involved in terrorist activities. "Suspected" basically means they don't need any evidence.
That is a violation of human rights hypocritically called "the patriot act".

I was born in the UK, live in Japan, but thanks to my Mum being a US citizen so am I. I lived in NY city for a year 15 years ago. I have relatives there too so I take an interest.
I have to say I am deeply saddened by the events over the last 15 years. Starting wars for BS reasons causing living hell for real people in other countries. What saddens me more is that many Americans see the main reasons against the war in Iraq as being economic.
Men, women and children have died and their lives ruined for no reason (including many young American soldiers).
Thats the real tragedy.

If you think America is free then ask yourself why there was an almost complete press black out of the wall street protests (for the first week or so).
Answer (IMO) , because some people would prefer these protests not to spread and be known because its against their interests.

If that seems strange to you then ask another question.
Why was the investigation into the BP oil disaster denied the power of subpoena?
Answer (IMO), because BP has enough influence over your house of representatives to get the subpoena blocked making the investigation powerless to find out what really happened.

Why did tower 7 (the third smaller tower that fell on 9/11) fall to the ground in a few seconds even though no plane hit it and only a tiny bit of smoke was seen from the upper floors?
Answer: draw your own conclusions but a building made from hundreds of solid steel girders cannot fall like that without days of planning and carefully planted explosives.

By the way you won't have seen the third tower falling on the news because the media never reported it (or hardly did anyway).
But Its there on youtube and other places.

All I want to say is that the picture of reality and what is happening, as portrayed by media and government is badly warped.
Thats because both of those entities are more or less controlled by the few at the top of the pyramid we call society.
They control and manipulate government and media to serve their purposes.

I quote "But you have to pay your fair share".

These people are most definitely not paying their fair share or playing by the rules set out in the constitution.
dreampow is offline  
Old 10-04-2011, 11:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
C.B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern MN
Posts: 332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreampow View Post
No one said the disparities have to be completely removed just a fairer distribution system (real taxing based on real wealth for example). Communism has been tried and failed IMO.



Exactly. Pay your fair share and play by the same rules as everyone else, but neither of those are happening right now.
If you don't think there is unfair or underhand dealings going on you are wearing a blindfold.
Look at stock buying and selling before 9/11 or before the BP (Gulf of Mexico) oil disaster. You will find that people in the know make money on events that are very very dubious.
Iraq. Lots of taxpayer money wasted? Yes, but not if you are an arms firm or a private security firm with a juicy contract because of the war. A war started based on lies and propaganda (no weapons of mass destruction found, none whatsoever).



Nor am I telling you how you should live. No one has the right to tell others how they should live. But if you look into it you might find the US government are taking away some of those very choices. Laws on seed producing crops for example, effectively prohibiting people from small scale subsistence farming and forcing them to buy seeds.



If you think America has a minimalistic government or that people are truly free, I humbly suggest you take a closer look.
You have one of the most intrusive governments IMO. After 9/11 your human rights laws were destroyed in the name of "fighting terror". People can be legally detained and tortured for information if they are "suspected" of being involved in terrorist activities. "Suspected" basically means they don't need any evidence.
That is a violation of human rights hypocritically called "the patriot act".

I was born in the UK, live in Japan, but thanks to my Mum being a US citizen so am I. I lived in NY city for a year 15 years ago. I have relatives there too so I take an interest.
I have to say I am deeply saddened by the events over the last 15 years. Starting wars for BS reasons causing living hell for real people in other countries. What saddens me more is that many Americans see the main reasons against the war in Iraq as being economic.
Men, women and children have died and their lives ruined for no reason (including many young American soldiers).
Thats the real tragedy.

If you think America is free then ask yourself why there was an almost complete press black out of the wall street protests (for the first week or so).
Answer (IMO) , because some people would prefer these protests not to spread and be known because its against their interests.

If that seems strange to you then ask another question.
Why was the investigation into the BP oil disaster denied the power of subpoena?
Answer (IMO), because BP has enough influence over your house of representatives to get the subpoena blocked making the investigation powerless to find out what really happened.

Why did tower 7 (the third smaller tower that fell on 9/11) fall to the ground in a few seconds even though no plane hit it and only a tiny bit of smoke was seen from the upper floors?
Answer: draw your own conclusions but a building made from hundreds of solid steel girders cannot fall like that without days of planning and carefully planted explosives.

By the way you won't have seen the third tower falling on the news because the media never reported it (or hardly did anyway).
But Its there on youtube and other places.

All I want to say is that the picture of reality and what is happening, as portrayed by media and government is badly warped.
Thats because both of those entities are more or less controlled by the few at the top of the pyramid we call society.
They control and manipulate government and media to serve their purposes.

I quote "But you have to pay your fair share".

These people are most definitely not paying their fair share or playing by the rules set out in the constitution.
i actually really agree with everything you just said, you basically elaborated on all of my points actually. and i was just stating what our government should be. Not what I believe it is currently.

btw i never said rich people are paying there fair share currently, all i said is that they should.

Last edited by C.B.; 10-05-2011 at 01:18 AM.
C.B. is offline  
Old 10-04-2011, 11:53 PM   #27 (permalink)
Banned!
 
snowklinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: L-Town
Posts: 4,855
Default

Interesting quote from Warren Buffet (not exactly) this past summer: I get taxed the same % as my secretary, which is not right. I am just waiting to be taxed the proper amount.

one of the few honest people with money.
snowklinger is offline  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:18 AM   #28 (permalink)
Veteran Member
 
dreampow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Kyoto Japan
Posts: 1,211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.B. View Post
i actually really agree with everything you just said, you basically elaborated on all of my points actually.

btw i never said rich people are paying there fair share currently, all i said is that they should actually.
Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick.

Get carried away easily, no harm intended.
dreampow is offline  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:26 AM   #29 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
C.B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern MN
Posts: 332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowklinger View Post
Interesting quote from Warren Buffet (not exactly) this past summer: I get taxed the same % as my secretary, which is not right. I am just waiting to be taxed the proper amount.

one of the few honest people with money.
he's fucking great. brilliant but still down to earth. personally i believe in a flat tax rate. but if you want to pay more thats great
C.B. is offline  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:32 AM   #30 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
C.B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern MN
Posts: 332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreampow View Post
Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick.

Get carried away easily, no harm intended.
its really fine, as an outsider to american politics your opinion is an eye opener to us all.

at first i was confused as to why you were commenting on all of my post, but we really have similar ideals.

my posts are not intended to be offensive to anyone its just my personal opinion.
C.B. is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:56 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
VerticalSports
Baseball Forum Golf Forum Boxing Forum Snowmobile Forum
Basketball Forum Soccer Forum MMA Forum PWC Forum
Football Forum Cricket Forum Wrestling Forum ATV Forum
Hockey Forum Volleyball Forum Paintball Forum Snowboarding Forum
Tennis Forum Rugby Forums Lacrosse Forum Skiing Forums