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Old 11-05-2011, 07:45 PM   #21 (permalink)
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the fact that some corporations had a net tax bill of $0 is basically meaningless because whatever tax burden is imposed on corporations is ultimately a burden borne by individuals in one of several ways.

1. Stakeholders, in the form of smaller ROI from dividends, etc.
2. Employees, in the form of reduced wages, benefits or working conditions
3. Customers, in the form of higher prices, lower quality/quantity.

Most of us fall in to camp 2. All of us fall in to camp 3. And unless you have no retirement savings whatsoever, you're also in category #1 since institutional investors (i.e., your 401k, pension, annuity, etc.) are the largest owners of common stock.

The real problem is: If you raise the tax burden on corporations, who will most likely bear that cost?

Everyone always thinks that "someone else" will foot the bill. But you don't have to look very hard to see that most of the time that "someone else" is going to include you.
Fuck stake holders. They'll make money regardless. Employees are seeing a reduction in wages anyways, not because of an increase in corporate taxes. It's because unions no longer have leverage. And austerity measures and low unemployment is already killing consumer demand. So we need to increase aggregate demand and redistribute wealth through democracy. It is the ONLY option.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I always hear this bitching about democrats being just as bad as republicans. NO. Look at what Elliot Spitzer did for financial corruption, and look at what Elizabeth Warren is doing for consumer protection. Look at Obama's jobs plan that's being cock-blocked by republicans. Obviously there is going to be some compromise with lobbyists as long as they exsist, but at least true liberals recongnize they pose conflicts of interest and shouldn't be part of the political process.

But most importantly you have to look at republican's trickle-down supply side economics, which just turned out to be a scam to concentrate wealth among the richest vs actual economics the democrats are proposing that would redistribute income, raise aggregate demand and regulate the grifters who've looted the economy for the last 30 years.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
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The plan is being blocked by Republicans because it was not made by Republicans. Parties are the worst thing to happen to politics since Bush....the W not Hubert.
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Im all for having fun, showing your tits and getting fucked up on a river float but it can be done without being a pig.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Fuck stake holders. They'll make money regardless.
Sure. As long as you can ensure that "someone else" is affected by this. Sounds great on paper. Doesn't work in practice. At all.

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Employees are seeing a reduction in wages anyways, not because of an increase in corporate taxes.
I don't disagree with this, I'm just throwing out the idea that raising taxes is not a panacea. If corporations can successfully pass the costs on to the employees, they will. That makes a bad situation even worse.

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And austerity measures and low (sic?) unemployment is already killing consumer demand. So we need to increase aggregate demand and redistribute wealth through democracy. It is the ONLY option.
It's the only option in the Keynesian playbook. I don't think it is the "only" option in the world, though. Demand, especially over the last 40-50 years has been fueled primarily by debt, and this is simply unsustainable.

What is needed is a return to productivity, not this focus on unbridled consumption. Productivity creates value & wealth. Consumption destroys wealth. We have too much consumption, not enough production.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Yeah I meant low employment. But the only realistic way to increase aggregate demand is through gov't investment. Corporate capital is being hoarded, and global markets are recieving most private invesment, and we'll never see our exports exceed our imports.

Yes we have a consumption problem, people were living outside of their means, but it's not all their fault. They're sold it through advertising everyday, and the question whether it's sustainable never entered the popular rhetoric. Yes wealth has been suplemented with debt. But it was done so systematically and predetorily.

As far as stakeholders and the financial system overall goes, it's social worth is highly over rated. And modest increases in taxes will never de-incentivize markets.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:51 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I'm inclined to agree with you for the most part, although it's not really possible to target the corporate tax in such a way that it only affects the stakeholders. They can, and will, pass that cost on to the rest of us. Sure, they will nominally write the checks, but they'll make up for it somehow otherwise, and we'll ultimately end up paying for it anyways out of our own diminishing paychecks.

If what we want is more equality (financial and otherwise) we can't just fiddle with the income. We have to consider the distribution of property/capital in the first place.
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Hawk Island - 6
Mt. Holly - 5
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Pine Knob - 2
Crystal Mountain - 2
Treetops - 2
Alpine Valley - 2
Caberfae Peaks - 2
Cannonsburg - 1
Urban - 1
Slackcountry - 1
Nub's Nob - 1
Sugar Mountain, NC - 1
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:57 PM   #27 (permalink)
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TBH I think most of us have come to the realization that most in upper tier politics, Republican or Democrat are corporate cronies. It's just perhaps that the Republican party has been a lot more obvious in their dealings and in revealing their true intentions. Right now people will pick Democrat because it might be the lesser of the two evils, but ultimately we all know they are still evils and we want something better.
I don't know man...instead of trying to question the lesser of two evils, seems like we should all be questioning the government as a whole. Last I checked, it took both parties to make a dysfunctional government, but hey as long as the government can keep the wool pulled over everyones eyes and make you and I think it makes a fucking difference who is in the white house, then they can keep stealing our tax money and doing nothing to represent the people who voted them into office. The government just uses both parties as a shell game IMO to draw attention away from the shit we should really be paying attention to.

Lastly, there are far too many ignorant people out there that trust the government and look to the government for guidance...they have the "it must be okay...the government said it is mentality...a bunch of fucking sheep with with their shepherd in the white house.

Andy
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:07 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I don't know man...instead of trying to question the lesser of two evils, seems like we should all be questioning the government as a whole.
I sense an anarchist in the making. May I suggest Spooner's "No Treason"?

Cheers!
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Mt. Brighton - 13
Hawk Island - 6
Mt. Holly - 5
Mt. Bohemia - 3
Mt. Tolle - 3
Boyne Mountain - 2
Pine Knob - 2
Crystal Mountain - 2
Treetops - 2
Alpine Valley - 2
Caberfae Peaks - 2
Cannonsburg - 1
Urban - 1
Slackcountry - 1
Nub's Nob - 1
Sugar Mountain, NC - 1
Beech Mountain, NC - 1
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:23 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ever heard of the cyclical history view. Governments are no exception. All these protests could just be the beginning of another cycle.
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Im all for having fun, showing your tits and getting fucked up on a river float but it can be done without being a pig.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:26 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I sense an anarchist in the making. May I suggest Spooner's "No Treason"?

Cheers!
Maybe so. The older I get, the more taxes we all pay, the angrier this shit makes me.
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