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Old 08-03-2012, 01:57 AM   #51 (permalink)
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just a load of bullshit.

it has been shown when people use the phrase "it has been shown" to bolster their argument that they really have no sources but are just regurgitating someone else's opinion.
he wrote that book before joining the AEI, something you would discover if you did a bit of due diligence. He was affiliated with RAND prior to the AEI.

Even liberals who critiqued the book did not disagree with his findings. They argued that the religious aspect of giving skewed the results and if you removed them, it would be more equal. But they did not question his study of 10 different datasets.

And it makes perfect sense. Liberals think govt. should be the ones to take care of the needy. Hence - higher taxes. Nobody is saying Liberals are less compassionate. They just think govt. will do it for them.

Welfare by the way is 12% of the Federal Budget. Pensions for workers is 22%.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:00 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:14 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Barack had an extreme upbringing. He doesn't govern as one because he's smart enough to know he can't. It would kill his party and his legacy. He cares about his legacy with his big ego. He has radical roots but he's also pragmatic. The money is in the middle. The votes are in the middle. You have to appear to be somewhat close to the middle. This isn't Europe.
Sure, I understand that upbringing may have been more left than his policies. But in his defense everyone is allowed to find their own path to where they sit on issues and it's doubtful he is as red at heart as some would have us believe - people change their mind and evolve their philosophies. Secondly, I think you could say the same about many candidates on the other side of the fence who play down their extreme right views to appeal to a broader base. On both sides are a bunch of careerists who just want to get ahead at all costs, and we're foolish to think otherwise.
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:50 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Nice try jdang, but that picture fails to address the other 95% of the argument, and you somehow think you proved me wrong. For anyone watching, this is what it's like trying to debate the republicans in America these days. And I guess since they have roads in North Korea that invalidates the fact that they enable us to conduct business on a daily basis, that makes sense.

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Old 08-03-2012, 09:20 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Sorry, couldn't help it.
Love this, people do not realize how many systems exist in the background as a function of government that keep society functioning at the high level of complexity in which it exists today. You could not achieve today's world by greatly suppressing governmental control and services, because A. there would be no satisfactory contract between all citizens and B. if there was, there would be no adequate way to regulate the bandits from raiding the townsfolk.

Not saying I want government to solve all of our problems or that it works perfectly, but people forget how intrinsic it is to the functioning of a complex system simply because it is fairly transparent.

All I can say is think back to the time before the U.S Government had a big part in everyday life. It was mild chaos with little to no accountability between people and Wild-Wild-West antics abound.

Maybe some people want that, and that's fine, but that's not me.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:30 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Love this, people do not realize how many systems exist in the background as a function of government that keep society functioning at the high level of complexity in which it exists today. You could not achieve today's world by greatly suppressing governmental control and services, because A. there would be no satisfactory contract between all citizens and B. if there was, there would be no adequate way to regulate the bandits from raiding the townsfolk.

Not saying I want government to solve all of our problems or that it works perfectly, but people forget how intrinsic it is to the functioning of a complex system simply because it is fairly transparent.

All I can say is think back to the time before the U.S Government had a big part in everyday life. It was mild chaos with little to no accountability between people and Wild-Wild-West antics abound.

Maybe some people want that, and that's fine, but that's not me.
with all that said, this is how the Zombie Apocolypse turns into a shit fest
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:16 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Sure, I understand that upbringing may have been more left than his policies. But in his defense everyone is allowed to find their own path to where they sit on issues and it's doubtful he is as red at heart as some would have us believe - people change their mind and evolve their philosophies. Secondly, I think you could say the same about many candidates on the other side of the fence who play down their extreme right views to appeal to a broader base. On both sides are a bunch of careerists who just want to get ahead at all costs, and we're foolish to think otherwise.
Yah that's cool. I've always said, Barack doesn't govern from the far left. He's a statist for sure, but every President has ruled from the center.

That's the nature of the beast. Bill Clinton attempted to ram through his liberal agenda. And then the country turned on him, and voted in the first Republican congress in decades. So he moved to the center, and some liberals will claim Clinton moved to the right. Remember, it was Clinton who deregulated the financial industry and it was Clinton who declared, "The era of Big Government is over."

People blame Bush for deregulation but the big deregs happened under Clinton.

Bush is perceived to be a far right radical but he was as liberal as ever. He expanded govt. involvement in education with No Child Left Behind. He expanded the medicare prescription program by hundreds of billions.

The fact of the matter is, once someone becomes President, the realities of the position takes hold. Obama tried to run the leftist agenda for just a bit. He dipped his toes in the water. During the midst of the great recession he tried to pass Cap and Trade. It died in the Senate, but passed the House. He took so much heat for that, the stimulus, and eventually ACA/Healthcare, he stopped. It almost mirrors Clinton's first two years. Democrats got clobbered both times in the midterms.

My point is, Obama did have a radical upbringing, even if he does not govern that way now. The GOP is accused of becoming more radical, yet moderates keep getting elected. I'm just saying, what people are saying is happening, doesn't flesh out in reality. If the GOp shifted far right, why did a far right candidate not get nominated? It just isn't true. The Tea Party has succeeded in getting the Republicans to act more like Republicans, because the Republicans of the last few years have acted like Democrats (expanding govt and deficits), but as a whole, the GOP is right where they've been. Electing weaklings like Romney.

As you can tell I'm not a fan of Romney. He's the worst of McCain and Jon Kerry rolled into on.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:25 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Nice try jdang, but that picture fails to address the other 95% of the argument, and you somehow think you proved me wrong. For anyone watching, this is what it's like trying to debate the republicans in America these days. And I guess since they have roads in North Korea that invalidates the fact that they enable us to conduct business on a daily basis, that makes sense.
Dude, it was a joke. Did you not see the smiley? Calm down.

I'm not a Republican. I'm a conservative. I voted for John Kerry because Bush is no conservative and I thought his going into Iraq was a huge mistake and I hated the decision.

So take your assumptions and shove it!



Let me ask you this. In his speech where he said "You didn't build that" Barack Obama said, the people who were successful did not do so because they are smart, or they were hardworking. Here are his words.

Quote:
I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)
Well tell me, the smart people out there, the hardworking people out there that Obama references, and are not successful. Did they not have access to the roads, bridges, internet and American system that everyone else has? They did right? But they're not successful. So it cannot be the bridges, and roads, and internet that made the difference. It was the entrepreneur. So yes, they did build that.

Again, I'm not against raising some taxes. I think we should raise them all across the board. Let the Bush tax cuts expire. All of them. So I'm not saying, we need to coddle the rich or the successful. Trust me, they can handle the minor increase in taxes. If we are going to raise taxes, we need to raise all of them. We need to broaden the tax base. Raising taxes only on the rich will only yield about $5 billion a year. That's not going to get anything accomplished.

I'm just pointing out the absurdity of what Obama tried to say. The fundamental difference between what Conservatives want and what Liberals want is the amount of gov.t interference in our affairs. Are things better today than yesterday? Govt. has their hand in more things today than 1, 5, 20, 30, 40 years ago. Are things really better? They fucked shit up, and we want them to be more involved? Govt. is necessary. They have functions that only govt. can provide. Public safety, national defense, regulation of the commerce. That is great. Only they can handle that, nobody disputes that.

But ever since the Great Depression have things gotten better with Gov.t intervention? Have they eliminated or even smoothed out recessions? No. Since they've jumped into education with the DOE have our test scores improved? No, we spend much, much more than we did before the DOE but our children's test scores have remained stagnant for 50 years. Since they started the Department of Energy has our energy independence increased? Nope.

I'm not an anarchist. We're all for good, efficient govt. We just differ on how much gov't there should be.

The top 20% of earners, pay 70% of all taxes. So when anyone tells you the upper class isn't paying enough, they're bullshitting you.



Govt. provides very useful services, and yes the Rich has taken advantage of it, and yes they pay for it. As you can see, the bottom 60% of tax payers pay much less in taxes than their share of total income. And that's not wrong. That's fair. But to say the top 20% hasn't paid their fair share is ludicrous. They pay 70% of all taxes collected. Whether we want them to pay more, well that's a worthy discussion. But what we cannot say is they haven't paid a reasonable or fair share. They pay 70% already. What's fair. 99%? Maybe..




EDIT: Eh, it's 3 am and I'm drunk. Ignore all that shit I just wrote above, I'm not fooling anyone. Democrats and Republicans all suck, they take care of themselves, and we all get fucked. That's just the way it is.

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