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Old 10-06-2012, 02:03 AM   #181 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by davidj View Post
WORD!

Atheism = religion. Both are belief systems.

Agnosticism is the only paradigm that has true "scientific integrity", because it does not make leaps of faith beyond what science can offer us today. With a little humility, maybe we can all get along, celebrating the fact that the planet is a much richer place because of our diversity.
Shit, if Atheism is a belief system, who's the first theist I get to burn at a stake for not agreeing with me? Can't wait for that. Have my kindling ready!

Last two pages of this thread makes me want to burn all who posted, muwahahahaha. Off to dream of Jesus riding his dinosaur now, ahh what a sweet dream.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:17 AM   #182 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CalvaryCougar View Post
I wasn't sure if he was joking or mocking.

It really doesnt matter about the age of the earth. The one thing that does matter though is why would we take the New Testament as literal but not take the Old Testament as literal also? Christians who believe the New Testament but believe the Old Testament is fully of fairy tales are picking and choosing which part of the Bible they want to believe.
Well I'm pretty disgusted you think rape is acceptable then. Shame on you.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:25 AM   #183 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CalvaryCougar View Post
And not to be disrespectful but I am not going to take some guy on a snowboarding forum for fact. And I don't mean to bash you, I have studied the Bible for years and have never heard any of the stuff you stated.
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Originally Posted by CalvaryCougar View Post
And as Christians we are suppose to believe that the complex structure of the human body and the brain that we use in understanding these thing (which we still are currently not 100% sure how it works) came from absolutely nothing? Time space and matter just happened? Even if you believe that some matter is eternal you really believe that the specific and complex code comes from nothing? You believe that as frail as human life is, you want to believe that it happened by chance? A random explosion that created the order of the universe and the complexity of animal and human bodies seems more logical?

Bing! The argument from personal incredulity strakes again!!

It would only take you a couple of hours to learn about how it's not only possible but overwhelmingly likely. Ignorance or understanding, it's your life live it how you want. But I take offence that you propagate ignorance to others.

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Old 10-06-2012, 07:02 AM   #184 (permalink)
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This, and the comments that Snowolf made, are (IMO anyway) the biggest problem with creationist arguments. Creationists tend to take a reductionist view of arguments, i.e. everything's a two-horse race and it's all me or thee. It's evolution or creationism, it's christianity or atheism, it's carbon-14 or nothing, etc. The problem is, it's almost never so simple. For instance, the circular argument posted in that vid near the beginning of this thread (bible is infallible because it's the word of god, it's the word of god because it says so, and you have to accept that because it's infallible [loop] ). The problem with this argument is that I can prove the Truth of Islam, Hinduism, and any other religion that has a "holy book". You could even make a pretty good argument for religions with only verbal traditions using the same "inspired by [insert deity here]" argument. So now the xians have the additional problem of proving that THEIR circular argument is right while the other religions' circular arguments are nonsense.

With "proofs" like carbon-14, they forget that there are many different pieces of evidence that not only point to an old universe, but also corroborate each other. Various radioactive dating techniques corroborate each other, and agree with dendrochronology, ice core samples from the arctic, sediment samples from the bottom of the ocean, DNA ancestry tracing, language evolution, magnetic fossilization in lava flows, etc, probably many more than I can think of while sitting here recovering from work.

Then there's the historical problems: No record whatsoever of the Jews in Egypt, or of all the firstborn male Egyptians dying; no evidence of ten thousand-odd hebrews wandering the desert for 40 years; no evidence of the Flood; Archeological evidence that indicates that the Hebrews didn't defeat the Canaanites, but are the Canaanites, and so on.

Anyway, the point is, it's one thing to take it on faith (which I believe is the whole point according to JC) and another to try to present it as a rigorously defensible theory.
Yes, there are many different forms of clock (the DNA mutation one is particularly interesting) that all have a high degree of accuracy over a particular timescale and furthermore corroborate each other where they overlap.

On the other hand religion has "but the bible says, but the bible says"

On the point about the flood though, it's interesting that this particular legend is an undeniably widespread one List of flood myths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Does that mean that the bible is the accurate version? Preposterously unlikely (not to mention arrogant of Christians to think so). Far from being proof the other versions serve to dilute the biblical version. Much more likely that some much earlier large scale flood event passed down and retold by many, many generations (Chinese Whispers anyone) until separate myths become the canonical versions and the origin lost.

But that's old bible stuff, take the new testament... compiled (by the church - PEOPLE with a vested interest in power and control) from selected documents written years after Jesus' life, then versioned and (mis)translated.

Yet today it's taken as indisputable fact...

Even if the writings had a basis in truth, a child would be able to see the flaws in being able to assert the accuracy and authenticity with any real conviction. Let alone the layer of personal interpretation that is inevitably ladled on top by the reader...

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Old 10-06-2012, 07:16 AM   #185 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by davidj View Post
WORD!

Atheism = religion.
Please try and get your facts right. Some basic info from Wikipedida for you:

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist."


Although Christians are in fact pretty similar to atheists (one step away to be precise)..

It's hard to get an accurate estimate on how many Gods there are currently being worshiped by the various different religions in the world but I'm sure it's safe to say it's a 1000 (probably higher)..

Christians don't believe in 999 of them. Atheists don't believe in 1000 of them.

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Old 10-06-2012, 09:31 AM   #186 (permalink)
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And to the quote above have you read the Bible in its entirety? If you do you can see that God is not how you depict him.
Calvary, I have literally read the bible in its entirety. King James Version. When I was a christian I undertook to read a chapter or so every night before going to bed. I've read it end to end. Frankly I think that was part of what drove me away from christianity in the end.

Have YOU done that?
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:43 AM   #187 (permalink)
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And there are many more examples. How is a God who gives His Son so that those who have sin against him can gain eternal life be what you think he is?
that's exactly the problem. For every quote you can pull up of a loving god, I could pull up a quote showing a psychotic, sadistic volcano god. Either the supreme creator of the universe is a looney tune (which is inconsistent with the non-crazy predictable universe we see) or the bible does not literally describe said creator (whether or not he exists). If you make the assumption though that the bible was written by people with their own agendas to push, it makes complete sense. People collected old stories together and gathered them into the pentateuch the same way people gathered together children's stories into Aesop's Fables. In some cases there were multiple stories to combine. That's why the genesis story in chapter two contradicts chapter one. That's why in some cases god is referred to in the plural in genesis. That's why there are morality tales like the story of Job. Those tales had a purpose, which was to establish and maintain a cultural identity. And hey, it worked. Job completed!
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:58 AM   #188 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CalvaryCougar View Post
And as Christians we are suppose to believe that the complex structure of the human body and the brain that we use in understanding these thing (which we still are currently not 100% sure how it works) came from absolutely nothing? Time space and matter just happened? Even if you believe that some matter is eternal you really believe that the specific and complex code comes from nothing? You believe that as frail as human life is, you want to believe that it happened by chance? A random explosion that created the order of the universe and the complexity of animal and human bodies seems more logical?
First, don't conflate literal creationism with christianity. There are hundreds of millions of xians out there who believe in JC just as fervently as you but don't believe in a 6000 year old Earth. I double damn dare you to declare publicly on this forum that they will go to hell for that. No? Didn't think so. There are fundamentalists who will happily make that declaration, but to really express my opinion of them I'd have to hit up BurtonAvenger for advice.

Second, you propose as an alternative believing in a deity who has always been there. How is that better? It's just a cop-out. "I don't understand it, so goddidit." Speaking of which, it's interesting to note that generally speaking the less people understand about the science involved, the more incredulous they are, and the more they become educated about the subject, the more reasonable it becomes. Shouldn't that indicate to you that the problem isn't with the universe, it's with you?

Third, the thing about the secularist belief is that it is testable and makes predictions. And it passes those tests. Whereas xianity as failed every objective test you could come up with, including the most basic test of actually producing any evidence, anything at all, that a deity of any kind exists.

Lastly, that comment "which we still are currently not 100% sure how it works". Don't go there. That sounds at surface like a good argument for you, but the god of the gaps argument will get you smooshed. It's essentially painting yourself into a corner.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:05 AM   #189 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tylerkat89 View Post
You drank a lot of tap water as a kid didn't you?
tyler, a post that is nothing but an insult is a troll. We allow a lot of leeway with the political forums, but this kind of post kills debate.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:09 AM   #190 (permalink)
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i would just like to state that i think that groups that seek to use snowboarding as a tool to lure children into their cult of hatred and intolerance are disgusting, reprehensible, and predatory - and i would personally punch you in the face for trying to hijack the sport i grew up with for your religious gains.

fuck. you.
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