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Old 10-07-2012, 05:09 AM   #211 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Slush Puppie View Post

But really I'd be much more interested to see you respond to some of the points you have conspicuously avoided responding to such as overwhelming evidence again your young earth theory.
So even though I answered your question and showed why you were wrong let's just ignore that and focus on something else?
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:39 AM   #212 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CalvaryCougar View Post
So even though I answered your question and showed why you were wrong let's just ignore that and focus on something else?
Well picking the many holes in the bible to pieces is fun but since it's a book containing (at best) a set of unreliable chinese whispers written by man complete with the prejudices and flaws of the time, it's a little pointless as anything more than a little sport. But specifically you haven't really addressed it anyway you've just posted some conflicting verses that you're interpreting to mean what you want it to. Which of course we all do and is a further major flaw with it as the basis of a religion.


The only things you have addressed thus far are the few things you can muster up a bible quote or some crackpot pseudo science for. What I hope you can appreciate is that as atheists we require a much higher standard of proof than that.

We are not quite as easily brainwashed as the average theist seems to be. Yet we are actually standing by, ready to accept new ideas, all you have to do is back them up with credible evidence.

We also challenge our own beliefs and actively search for new information that could shatter or reinforce them. I don't see that happening with theism. A filter in the mind seems to exist that disregards or tries to explain away or rationalise the overwhelming number of problems with religious beliefs, especially young earth creationism. Often amounting to behaviour we would recognise in a child.

So my offer stands, I invite you to convince me. I am genuinely interested in learning what your understanding of these issues is and discussing them with you with the hope that we have all learned something as result of this thread and allowed ourselves to challenge whatever beliefs we have.

"The bible says" and "i can't believe" are NOT proof of anything other than ignorance.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:05 AM   #213 (permalink)
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For those of you that do believe in a god, i'm interested to know what makes you believe. Genuine question.

A) The bible says so
B) It's the best explanation we have
C) Because it makes people good/gives us morals
D) I find evolution through natural selection hard/impossible to believe.
E) It's how my parents brought me up/I always have
F) I don't feel the science tells me why, just how.
G) I just 'know' it is/deeply felt experience. A sense of there being something out there.
H) Some other.

I guess it could be more than one so either the main one or several if need be.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:13 AM   #214 (permalink)
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I'm a Christian and I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. In response to Slush Puppie: A, E, G. Another points that I like to add is that a lot of people believe or know that there are some supernatural things (ghost, demonic possesion of people, evil spirits, etc.) but they don't believe in God which to me doesn't make sense. But I do respect people who are atheists and will not force them to believe in Jesus. I find this religion debate never ending.

EDIT: It's not just from tv shows that I know these demonic presence exists, in my country, a lot of people practice black magic and witchcraft (if you could call it that).

Last edited by skip11; 10-07-2012 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:22 AM   #215 (permalink)
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And one further question for CalvaryCougar (and anyone else that cares to answer it).

I get that you have deeply held beliefs and while I am asking you to challenge them, I certainly respect your right to have them whatever they are. And I also respect it if you are unwilling to say on the internet.

But my question is:

What would have to happen for you to change them? Or consider other possibilities?
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:39 AM   #216 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CalvaryCougar View Post
I dont believe that if they dont believe the earth is 6,000 years they are going to hell. If you have read the Bible then you know the only thing Jesus says we need for salvation is faith in him and to be baptized.
I really didn't think you do. You don't strkie me as that type.

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Originally Posted by CalvaryCougar View Post
Your second point is not true. There are plenty people more educated than me who dont believe in Darwins theories.
Dissent from Darwin
Which is why I was very careful to put the word "generally" in my statement. I know there are exceptions. I also know that all these exceptions were xians before they were scientists, so they started out knowing what side they wanted to take.

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Thirdly please dont say evolution is a science that has been tested and proven. Unless you or me was actually there when all this happen it is not testable. And please don't use adaption as a point to try to prove evolution is testable, becaue we don't see a change of species.
Sorry, I've already explained testability, as has a video in this thread. Evolution is testable, has been tested, and has passed. Theism is also testable, has been tested (by actual xians in one case that I know of) and has failed.

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Originally Posted by CalvaryCougar View Post
And by the way you think sound like you think scientist that believe in evolution are unbiased and aren't trying to push their own agendas. Just look at examples of "evolution" that we have found to be hoaxes.

http://www.discovery.org/articleFile...fTheFakest.pdf
And how do you know about those fakes (and mistakes)? Was it xians that unmasked them? Nope. It was scientists. How do xians know to make hay out of the "fine tuning" problem? It's not like the xians have mathmaticians on staff. It's scientists. That's something called "intellectual honesty". Scientists will readily admit when there's a problem with a theory. Scientists will enthusiastically unmask a hoax or mistake by another scientist, because science is incredibly competitive. You don't make a name for yourself by agreeing with someone else. You make a name for yourself first by coming up with a new theory that holds water, or second by punching holes in another scientist's theory. All scientific theories have gone through this gauntlet, whether we're talking biology, astronomy, physics, electronics, geology, or whatever. The current version of evolutionary theory has not been around since darwin - not even close - because scientists kept finding problems and figuring out solutions. You might say Evolutionary theory has evolved . Evolutionary theory exists because theistic "theories" failed this gauntlet right out of the gate.

As for "no one was there", that's a variation on argument by ignorance. You don't know what research and testing they've done to arrive where they are so you assume there isn't any. Hell, let me turn it around on you. YOU WEREN'T THERE EITHER! Oh, look, you're inferring what happened by indirect evidence! How original! Trouble is, my evidence matches observations, yours doesn't. Simple as that.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:47 AM   #217 (permalink)
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Going away for a couple of days. It's thanksgiving in Canada. Slushpuppie, you have the con.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:32 AM   #218 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slush Puppie View Post
Well picking the many holes in the bible to pieces is fun but since it's a book containing (at best) a set of unreliable chinese whispers written by man complete with the prejudices and flaws of the time, it's a little pointless as anything more than a little sport. But specifically you haven't really addressed it anyway you've just posted some conflicting verses that you're interpreting to mean what you want it to. Which of course we all do and is a further major flaw with it as the basis of a religion.
You didnt poke any holes into the Bible. You misunderstood a verse and the context of the verse. If you read the verse before you see that the difference between these two "contradicting verses", as you called them is whether or not the woman is to be married. The first of these verses tells us if she was to be married and had a source of income (her future husband) the rapist was to be put to death.

The second verse tells us that if she did not have a fiance then the rapist was going to be responsible for the well being of the woman by being legally bound to her. If you read my previous post about the time that this was written you see that a woman who wasn't a virgin would probably have been outcast and left to take care of herself and her baby alone. This scripture made the rapist responsible for her.

"Furthermore, there was precedent under the Mosaic Law for the victimized woman not to marry the victimizer if her father determined that she could be provided for in a more suitable manner (Exodus 22:16–17). Thus, the law was not designed to force the rape victim into an unbearable marriage, but to secure her future and that of her children."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slush Puppie View Post
The only things you have addressed thus far are the few things you can muster up a bible quote or some crackpot pseudo science for. What I hope you can appreciate is that as atheists we require a much higher standard of proof than that.

We are not quite as easily brainwashed as the average theist seems to be. Yet we are actually standing by, ready to accept new ideas, all you have to do is back them up with credible evidence.

We also challenge our own beliefs and actively search for new information that could shatter or reinforce them. I don't see that happening with theism. A filter in the mind seems to exist that disregards or tries to explain away or rationalise the overwhelming number of problems with religious beliefs, especially young earth creationism. Often amounting to behaviour we would recognise in a child.
Its funny when I point out scientists that don't believe as you do they are "crackpots". Did you watch the Anthony Flew video? He was once an atheist and I believe a scientist, who changed his stance. Is he a crackpot for changing his stance due to the evidence he found?
What about people in this video?



What about this?
Signature in the Cell by Stephen C. Meyer

This?

Streaming Media - Climbing Mt. Improbable - A clip from Darwin's Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slush Puppie View Post
So my offer stands, I invite you to convince me. I am genuinely interested in learning what your understanding of these issues is and discussing them with you with the hope that we have all learned something as result of this thread and allowed ourselves to challenge whatever beliefs we have.
I myself am not an expert in these fields. But there are those who are who have written things on why they dont buy evolution.
CSC - Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design (Annotated)

Im really done debating these things on the internet when I am the only Christian doing debating vs the numerous atheist attacking my beliefs.(not directed at you in particular)
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:18 PM   #219 (permalink)
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I really didn't think you do. You don't strkie me as that type.
Im glad I dont



Quote:
Originally Posted by Donutz View Post
Which is why I was very careful to put the word "generally" in my statement. I know there are exceptions. I also know that all these exceptions were xians before they were scientists, so they started out knowing what side they wanted to take.
On side-note, I understand you don't believe in Christianity but i find it offensive that you purposely call us xians. Please respect my and other's views and call us by name as Christians. I don't use any slang when referring to atheists and i expect the same respect, nor have I once poked fun at your intelligence. (not saying you have, just some others in the forum) Im up for debate but not going to take insults for my beliefs.

To your main point, there are also many scientists who were atheist before they studied science so they too knew what side they wanted to take. Its impossible to be unbiased. There are also many example of those who found faith in Christ after they began studying such as CS Lewis, Lee Strobel, (and although hes not a christian) Anthony Flew.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Donutz View Post
Sorry, I've already explained testability, as has a video in this thread. Evolution is testable, has been tested, and has passed. Theism is also testable, has been tested (by actual xians in one case that I know of) and has failed.
Actually unless you can reproduce another functioning planet that was created without any intelligent influence then you cannot say that evolution as Darwin theory is testable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Donutz View Post
And how do you know about those fakes (and mistakes)? Was it xians that unmasked them? Nope. It was scientists. How do xians know to make hay out of the "fine tuning" problem? It's not like the xians have mathmaticians on staff. It's scientists. That's something called "intellectual honesty". Scientists will readily admit when there's a problem with a theory. Scientists will enthusiastically unmask a hoax or mistake by another scientist, because science is incredibly competitive. You don't make a name for yourself by agreeing with someone else. You make a name for yourself first by coming up with a new theory that holds water, or second by punching holes in another scientist's theory. All scientific theories have gone through this gauntlet, whether we're talking biology, astronomy, physics, electronics, geology, or whatever. The current version of evolutionary theory has not been around since darwin - not even close - because scientists kept finding problems and figuring out solutions. You might say Evolutionary theory has evolved . Evolutionary theory exists because theistic "theories" failed this gauntlet right out of the gate.
Funny that these hoaxes have been presented as facts and are still used as examples of evolution today in textbooks. And im actually not sure if they weren't discovered by Christians or not I have not done enough research to know that. I honestly don't believe that someone who believed in evolution would go out of their way to try to discredit what another evolutionary scientist has published, why would they?


Last as stated above I am done debating my view over a snowboarding forum on the internet when it is clear I am in the minority of posters here. A fair debate would be one on one but this has turned in to me having to answer alot more questions than each person who believes in evolution. Im not a science major and came to show that there are those who have majored and are much wiser than me, and believe in intelligent design and have a problem with evolution.


For those that wanted me to sit here and list all the reasons for my faith I don't have time do go back and forth but I can give you a few quick reasons for why I believe what I do.
-I look at the whole of creation and the improbability of it forming without a creator and can clearly see design. The order of the solar system, the complexity of the human body, the wonders of how life can be sustained on earth and see God.
- I have seen God's work in my life and the lives of others.
-I have seen the love of Christ change people and drive people to love and have compassion towards others.
-I look at the reading of Paul and see how much sense it makes when viewing the world around me.
-Another big thing for me is the fact that all the disciples of Jesus suffered so much and most were killed for what they preached but they went about claiming they had seen Jesus rise from the dead and were firsthand witnesses of his death. I'm sorry but it takes alot for me to believe that the disciples of Jesus would bear multiple beating and torture and not admit they had made it up even unto death.
-I see the numerous prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, even though he did not fulfill them as expected. (I mean by this is the Jews were looking for someone to ride in as a king and rule the earth)
Messianic Prophecies (WebBible
-I see it hard to believe that man would invent a religion that condemns himself (not to mention the fact that Bible does not allow someone to "work" their way to heaven)
Romans 3:9-12

"9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11there is no one who understands,

no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”

-There are more reasons but that's as far as I'm going to go, and I'm finished debating


EDIT:
Also we know that Jesus claimed he was going to rise from the dead. The Romans knew this as well and guarded his tomb. If Jesus had truly not raised from the dead you had better believe when the Romans and Jews heard that people were claiming he rose from the dead, they would go and show his body to everyone squashing any form of Christianity we see today because it is all reliant upon his resurrection. But what happened is even far more fascinating, people were claiming to have seen him risen! The Bible says more than 500 people saw him! Then look at the persecution the early Christian church went through! Peter was even crucified upside down and other Christians were tortured but people would not be silent. How would a bunch of apostles who hid after Jesus was crucified for fear of execution turn into fearless preachers who preached that Jesus had risen even to the point of death?

I challenge all of you to watch this video, and see what you think.
The Case for Christ

This video is made by a former atheist who did not find God until examine the evidence and now is a Christian apologist.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:27 PM   #220 (permalink)
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I saw Case for Christ on Netflix, it was good.
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