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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 2hipp4u View Post
I was not trying to imply that the supposed word of God and the promise made was a fact. I just refer to the many kingdoms of Israel that have risen and fell over the last 3000 years, many of which happend before the supposed profit Mohammed got wasted and wrote down a bunch of horseshit and declared it the word of god.
Problem is that there are probably very few peoples who can make an unchallenged claim to any territory. North American culture took the land from First Nations. But First Nations probably took land back and forth among themselves multiple times. Land claims in B.C. by First Nations total about 150% of the total land area of the province, despite the fact that not all the land is claimed. This is because of competing and overlapping claims. There's also some evidence (possibly engineered) that the First Nations are actually Second Nations and took the land from the Clovis people.

On the British Isles, the land has been conquered multiple times. Europe has had armies sweeping back and forth for millenia. Africa -- don't get me started.

This stuff has been happening for 50,000 years. The point is that if you try to enact justice and put everybody back where they came from, even assuming you can untangle it, probably no-one will end up where they are right now. So while I accept that the Palestinian business is complicated and so forth, claims of "it's our traditional land" are just rhetoric as far as I'm concerned.


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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Donutz View Post
Problem is that there are probably very few peoples who can make an unchallenged claim to any territory. North American culture took the land from First Nations. But First Nations probably took land back and forth among themselves multiple times. Land claims in B.C. by First Nations total about 150% of the total land area of the province, despite the fact that not all the land is claimed. This is because of competing and overlapping claims. There's also some evidence (possibly engineered) that the First Nations are actually Second Nations and took the land from the Clovis people.

On the British Isles, the land has been conquered multiple times. Europe has had armies sweeping back and forth for millenia. Africa -- don't get me started.

This stuff has been happening for 50,000 years. The point is that if you try to enact justice and put everybody back where they came from, even assuming you can untangle it, probably no-one will end up where they are right now. So while I accept that the Palestinian business is complicated and so forth, claims of "it's our traditional land" are just rhetoric as far as I'm concerned.

Well said and the reason I bring up 1948. The "creation" of the state of Israel happened in the memory of current lifetimes, and even the current generation of people in that area are affected in a real way in terms of displacement. Ancient squabbles go back millenia and theres no way to untangle it all. As I've stated I really don't have a side here, but its easy to just look back to '48 and what has happened since to understand the modern Arab's point of view on Israel and the Zionist, Christian, Crusading west.

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Last edited by snowklinger; 11-17-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 04:03 PM
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Blah, blah, blah it's all religious BS. Our gods this...your gods that. Has anyone ever realized THERE IS NO GOD. It's all made up horse shit meant to control the masses of the weak minded and give people faith and something to believe in. Call me what you want, I don't care, this is my opinion. It is absolutely impossible for the people of the middle east and that region of the world to live peacefully. They never have and they never will. We should just leave them alone and let them live the way that they have been living since the dawn of time.

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 04:12 PM
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There is no debate or argument to be made on who has ancestral heritage to the land going back over 3000 years, you can try but facts are facts.

As to the so called persecution of arab muslim occupiers (some like to call them palistinains) your outrage is misplaced and with all due respect, its laughable. These arab terrorists bring everything they get upon themselves.

Their poor pity me act seems to be working on you and many others who wish to believe the lies and propaganda they put forth. Sad sad sad.
You must be joking, lies and propaganda? If anything UK television has been worse than fox news reporting the recent activities in Gaza, they are so pro Israeli it makes my stomach turn. People in the western world are not being told the truth, they are behind shielded from it.

Lets step away from the historical claim to the land (even though the first historical evidence shows it wasn't Jewish land but Canaan). Lets look at the ownership of land since the UN Patition Plan of 1947. Bearing in mind this was widely accepted by not only Israeli Jews but the vast majority of UN member countries.



The change in land demographic since 1948 hasn't been a peaceful transition. The Jews have murdered and steamrolled their way through Palestinian land and left a nation of people imprisioned in their own homes. Zionist Israeli's are Neo Nazis, treating the people of the Gaza Strip exactly the way Jews were treated in the Warsaw Ghetto. In the last 24 hours alone 19 Palestinians have been killed; among the casualties are 7 children, a pregnant women, and two elderly. More than 180 Palestinians have been injured; dozens are in serious conditions... but according to you they are arab terrorists and bring everything they get upon themselves.

You've spent most of your post being a total condecending prick let me try that for a change. I didn't form an opinion on the Israel/Palestine devide through my news feed, through historical readings or through a 3rd party. I decided to form my own opinion through my own eyes. I've travelled to the West Bank once and Gaza twice (2nd time we wern't even granted entry by Israeli IDF). So tell me how close have you been to the conflict? If you've seen what I've seen then theres no way you'd be telling me my outrage is misplaced and laughable.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 06:01 PM
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no, the big problem is that all humans are parasites and we are voraciously sucking the planet's resources up whilst overpopulating the planet at a rate that not even mankind's inherent bloodlust for fellow man can keep up with all the while distracting ourselves with the concepts of countries, religion, politics, wealth, power, etc. which only serve to divide us and pit man against man.


most intelligent life forms my ass.
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 06:06 PM
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no, the big problem is that all humans are parasites and we are voraciously sucking the planet's resources up whilst overpopulating the planet at a rate that not even mankind's inherent bloodlust for fellow man can keep up with all the while distracting ourselves with the concepts of countries, religion, politics, wealth, power, etc. which only serve to divide us and pit man against man.


most intelligent life forms my ass.
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 06:08 PM
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hell we even let snowboarding companies divide snowboarders!
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 07:08 PM
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Lets step away from the historical claim to the land (even though the first historical evidence shows it wasn't Jewish land but Canaan).
Actually the archeological evidence indicates that the jews ARE the canaanites. There was no "conquest", simply an import of a monotheistic religion from a small country east of Egypt (name escapes me right now).

But I digress.


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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 11:43 PM
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On this issue, I have always been sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. While I agree that Israel has a right to exist, their treatment of Palestinians is deplorable and the UN and US have a total bias when it comes to Israel.
One of my biggest gripes in this whole sad situation. The West refuses to speak up on this situation let alone take action, people I have voted to elect won't say a word.

Iraq violated 2 UN Security Council resolutions in 2003 and we all know how that ended. Israel to date? 66 and counting.
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-18-2012, 10:52 AM
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Yep! It is so glaringly obvious to everyone who looks at it objectively. Unfortunately the Jewish lobby in America (AIPAC) has enormous political power over US foreign policy and the UN is effectively a puppet of the US. This shockingly unbalanced treatment fuels a lot of the anti Israeli and anti American hatred and terrorism throughout the region and abroad.

It is NOT anti Semitic to advocate unbiased equal treatment and expectations from all nations in the region including holding Israel to those standards. This situation is actually hurting Israel and her people greatly too. Things have gotten so much worse with Netanyahu and his Zionist extremist Likud party in power.

If there is any chance of some semblance of peace, the Israeli people must enact change from within and vote these radical right wingers out of power and put in moderates like the Kadima party who, while still Zionist, understands that concessions to Palestinians must be made. Ariel Sharon was far more moderate and we saw much better stability and even some minimal progress. It may not be fair, but I believe it is on Israel's shoulders to begin this process of reform. Along with electing a more moderate government, Israelis must weed out the radical Zionists from the IDF; many of the high ranking IDF commanders are acting as rogues and committing atrocities not condoned by the people of Israel.
This.

But I honestly believe we'll never see peace within our lifetime or ever for that matter. Both are complicit, moreso Israel as they've committed horrible atrocities in the conflicts, using White Phosphorous on civilian populations and refugee camps as well as carpeting civilian neighbourhoods with cluster bombs to make them uninhabitable for a long period of time in a place where living space is at a premium.

It's a joke how they talk about caring about civilian deaths and do everything they can to prevent them when they have that kind of track record.

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