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Old 11-28-2010, 09:57 PM   #91 (permalink)
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no, but belief has a whole lot to do with intelligence lol.
as in stupid people believe stupid things.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:06 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Disagree...We are predators and other animals fear us because through millions of years of our evolution, we have become the top predator on the planet and through evolution, other animals have developed an instinctual fear of man as a survival trait. A deer in the woods will react just as fearful of a mountain lion as they do a human. This is natural evolution, not supernatural in nature.
i would agree that any species generally fears humanoids just as they do any other potential predator / strange creature entering their domain (altho good luck telling a shark or a lion to be scared of your skinny arse!)

but i would agree with Myke, that human kind is anomalous to most if not all other speices on this planet; whether it is a blessing or a burden, we are self-aware. this is the true sense of heightened intelligence; a sense of mortality.

it is this same sense of one's own eventual demise, which provokes the concept of an after life or there being a purpose to everything. it is not that such things could possibly exist, but instead, it suits our egotistical urges to presume that such has been bestowed upon us.

this is the method by which an intellectual coward can see eventual death to be a good thing (and why it is so tough to shift their POV).

really, it is quite simple to understand (both the concept, and why people like Myke exist).

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As for the precision of the universe, it is actually the very definition of Chaos. Within that chaos, lies random precision.
This idea of precision is another excuse not to think nor investigate too deeply.

Mr Wolf, again we agree, however i fear you are appeasing the god botherer. Everything is in a state of flux of an eventual decay. Nothing lasts forever and as such all precision is lost.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:22 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Non-theists typically want all theists to hear their logical, and rational breakdown of why a God can't/doesn't exist..... What is the point of "debate" when neither side is open to what the other has to say.... This is where the problem lies, nobody is willing to hear the other out. Both sides are incredibly closed minded. I think this is where the true ignorance lies.
I do not agree with this at all and this conclusion runs contrary to the reasons for why i participate in threads such as this in the first place.

I guess when all is said and done, i am certainly on the scientific side of the arguement but that is not to say i reject any claim of a god existing. I do not feel that religion and science are completely exclusive of each other, but i do feel that one gains credability from analysis.

Does god exist? of course! it is central to this discussion. does the easter bunny exist? well if you have heard of this term before, then yes it does. did either create the universe? well probably not.

is there an immortal element that is the creator of all things? well we humanoids have discovered a self-replicating cell called DNA. it lies in the heart of all living things and through its replication into new generations, it could be said to be ever-lasting.......

did some dude christ die for our sins? or is there a heaven or a hell? are any holy wars or lofty sacrifice actually for a sound cause? does organsied religion persist as one of (if not) the most lucrative bidnises the world over?
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:22 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Dolphins are self-aware, just off the top of my head

edit: Anybody read the Roswell, NM. transcripts of nurse Matilda MacElroy's 'Alien Interview' with the survivor of the 1947 crash?

Though the author claims it to be non-fiction, this science fiction text actually takes an interesting and particularly peculiar look at humans, god and our place in the Universe. Namely that we are all "Immortal Spiritual Beings", Souls in a body, rather than bodies with a soul, and as such we are all gods. We collectively created the Universe and can transcend from one to another. We on earth, however, have been trapped and forced to reincarnate again and again through a process of amnesia once we die (and it gets really fanciful here) because of the 'old empire' who turned the earth into a prison planet (hell) and sent all 'undesirables' (Criminals, perverts, crazy people as well as artists, free thinkers, non conformers) here.

It points to many historical 'facts' to further this story, such as the Pyramid cultures and their alignment at the center of the longitudinal/latitudinal center of earth, despite not being able to calculate such details unless from space, as well as Sumerian and Persian mythology, such as sculptures of 'Fahravar', 'Oannes', Ahura Mazda/Cyrus II (who were both part of 'The Domain' (good guys, but lost on earth thousands of years ago)

here's a free copy: http://exopoliticshongkong.com/uploa..._Interview.pdf

Anyways just typing that made me laugh, but again, it takes an interesting turn on the topic of spirituality from worshiping one god, to realizing we are all gods but were forced to believe that we weren't and made to instead become falsely Monotheistic. If you've watched the History Channels 'Ancient Aliens' program, a lot of what it says resonates with the topics of the show, and if you are a Scientologist, you'll feel this guy completely ripped you off
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:17 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Dolphins are self-aware, just off the top of my head
... in as much as they know they are looking at themselves, whilst in front of a mirror. the same can be said of the great apes and killer whales.

but this doesn't go to the extent that they are aware of their own mortality and are therefore free of speculating what lies beyond this life and whether there is 'purpose' (or porpoise bahahaa) to it all.

But... 'so long and thanks for all the fish!'
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:19 PM   #96 (permalink)
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With all due respect, you can't possibly know that

and thumbs up to your humor
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:30 PM   #97 (permalink)
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This site is more than just a place to get board reviews; you can find plenty of that without interacting with the authors. This site is an online community and having a political section is no more "inappropriate" than having an "off season" section. Many of us have developed friendships from the site and friendship has to be based on more than just "what board do you like to ride" Through these various discussions, including politics, we find out who we are compatible with and who we are not.

As another poster mentioned, look at other forums where there is no political section and you see religion and politics pop up in the middle of gear review. Other than an occasional joking comment with a political edge to it, politics and religion saty here and do not infect the snowboarding topics. You should be thankful we have this section for members to enjoy/ Those who do not wish to see it, are spared as a result.

I always get a bit leery when someone expresses a desire to limit what people are allowed to discuss...

Ok.... That is a good point.

I agree that church and state should remain separate. I agree that the evangelical "Christian" movement is terrifying.

I would tend to agree with a lot of the scientific view points in this thread. Why humans are always speculating about the creation of the universe is beyond me. I don't think it matters.

To add to the human vs. animals debate. Infinite, there is no way to know that dolphins are aware of their own mortality either. I think that there is something else that separates us humans, from animals. We seem to have some sort of moral code. Now, I am not sure how valid this argument is, and I know that the "evangelical" movement uses it a lot.

It seems to me though, that we humans are really the only species who has labeled a set of behaviors as "right" and "wrong". Not in a hierarchical sense either. It is something that most humans just understand as right and wrong.

This in my opinion (on top of the clear awareness of our own mortality) is what separates us from the rest of the animals.
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:44 PM   #98 (permalink)
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I agree that there is no way to know, that wasn't my argument. I was merely insinuating that there is no way to argue for the certainty that they aren't.

Richard O'Barry (the first to capture and train dolphins that were featured in Flipper) maintains to this day that Kathy (one of the dolphins) died in his arm in a form of suicide. This being a reference to the fact that unlike Humans, every breath a dolphin takes is a conscience act, and he empathizes that the last time she laid in his arms and let out her final breath, it was a sign of her tiredness of suffering.

What this means to you and I is besides the point, because it is his unique interaction and experience that gives light to the very possibility that something exists beyond our grasp and righteous pomposity

On your other note,
Prot: Every being in the universe knows right from wrong, Mark.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:04 PM   #99 (permalink)
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With all due respect, you can't possibly know that
An experiment to determine 'death awareness' in animals would require a lot of dead animals. Fortunately for the stoopid animals (ie most of them) they would not be viable candidates. Only those self-aware would qualify.

And so we get a group of elephants and test each individual's competence in recognising themselves with the mirror test. Once we have an adequate number of dumbos trying to rub spots off themselves, we introduce them to the concept of the bazooka.

As a group, the elephants are shown the bazooka. Then, one of the dumbos is blown to bits. Each of the other elephants needs to be present to witness the death of nelly number one. The bazooka is then applied to nelly number two. To the same effect. And so on.....

If there is death awareness, the reaction of nelly number one when having a bazooka pointed at it, should be quite different to the reaction of nelly number one hundred, when they are lined up in the crosshairs.

Basically:

1. make sure all subjects are self aware;
2. make sure that all recognise a dead one of their own kind;
3. ensure that they know what a bazooka looks like;
4. ensure that they connect the appearance of a bazooka with a chance of dead elephants;
5. analyse the behaviour pattern of subjects, to determine if they project their own self-awareness forwards in time, in appreciation of death and the consequence of it.
6. either watch the Church of Pachydermia come to life, or find that humans are at least more intelligent than dumbo!
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:33 PM   #100 (permalink)
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An experiment to determine 'death awareness' in animals would require a lot of dead animals. Fortunately for the stoopid animals (ie most of them) they would not be viable candidates. Only those self-aware would qualify.

And so we get a group of elephants and test each individual's competence in recognising themselves with the mirror test. Once we have an adequate number of dumbos trying to rub spots off themselves, we introduce them to the concept of the bazooka.

As a group, the elephants are shown the bazooka. Then, one of the dumbos is blown to bits. Each of the other elephants needs to be present to witness the death of nelly number one. The bazooka is then applied to nelly number two. To the same effect. And so on.....

If there is death awareness, the reaction of nelly number one when having a bazooka pointed at it, should be quite different to the reaction of nelly number one hundred, when they are lined up in the crosshairs.

Basically:

1. make sure all subjects are self aware;
2. make sure that all recognise a dead one of their own kind;
3. ensure that they know what a bazooka looks like;
4. ensure that they connect the appearance of a bazooka with a chance of dead elephants;
5. analyse the behaviour pattern of subjects, to determine if they project their own self-awareness forwards in time, in appreciation of death and the consequence of it.
6. either watch the Church of Pachydermia come to life, or find that humans are at least more intelligent than dumbo!
If I'm understanding you correctly, this seems like other tests where mice, for instance, would avoid a particular feeding zone for fear of shock. Its just recognizing patterns of pain/pleasure

I would like to test your elephant hypothesis though... you bring the bazooka, I'll spring a few elephants from the zoo
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