Gun Control Debate thread

[budderbear]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

except in my word where I live those fucked up people with no morals cant walk into a walmart and walk out with a loaded hand gun 10 minutes later.

Walmart doesn't sell handguns lol Just assult rifle "look-alikes", shotguns, and long rifles.

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by Capita2JZGTE

Are you blind to any type of reasoning? Guns aren't the only method of killing people. You don't think he wouldn't have used a different tool? Assuming he couldn't get a hold of some guns on the black market(if they were outlawed)?
Again with the logic you use we should ban anything that has the capability of killing someone, because if we do that then all murders will stop. right?

Sorry, no. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't work here. Go from a couple of handguns to a couple of knives and there are very few (if any) mass killings that would have resulted in as many deaths. You can kill a bunch of people in a room by just standing in one spot and shooting. With knives you have to chase each one down (leaving the door free). Following the 80/20 rule, you can get rid of 80% of these types of deaths by the one step of reducing or eliminating access to guns. (numbers are illustrative, not authoritative).

A good example is the frightending incident that happened in the prairies a few years ago (yes, in Canada. Get over it ) Some looney tune in a bus decapitated a guy with a kitchen knife. The rest of the passengers bolted. If the fruit loop had had a gun, things would have been very different.

[Capita2JZGTE]

Originally Posted by Donutz

A good example is the frightending incident that happened in the prairies a few years ago (yes, in Canada. Get over it ) Some looney tune in a bus decapitated a guy with a kitchen knife. The rest of the passengers bolted. If the fruit loop had had a gun, things would have been very different.

Who's limiting these psycho's to just using knives? You do realize without guns the next step up is homemade bombs right? Do you really think that's a better alternative?
You really think they are going to just put all of their evil plans on hold? Apparently you didn't hear about the situation in China yesterday where a man stabbed 22 children and an elderly lady at a school?
You people don't realize that people are going to just find a different tool to carry out their plans.
Wouldn't the better solution be to find out what's causing these people to do these things and try to stop the source of the madness?

[StreetDoc]

Originally Posted by Capita2JZGTE

Who's limiting these psycho's to just using knives? You do realize without guns the next step up is homemade bombs right? Do you really think that's a better alternative?
You really think they are going to just put all of their evil plans on hold? Apparently you didn't hear about the situation in China yesterday where a man stabbed 22 children and an elderly lady at a school?
You people don't realize that people are going to just find a different tool to carry out their plans.
Wouldn't the better solution be to find out what's causing these people to do these things and try to stop the source of the madness?

Already happened. We should outlaw fertilizer too. Remember Timothy Mcvay (sp?) and Oklahoma City?

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by Capita2JZGTE

Who's limiting these psycho's to just using knives? You do realize without guns the next step up is homemade bombs right? Do you really think that's a better alternative?

I was responding to the previous poster's reductio ad absurdum claim that we should outlaw everything that could kill people -- which you would think would include knives, yes?

Originally Posted by Capita2JZGTE

You really think they are going to just put all of their evil plans on hold? Apparently you didn't hear about the situation in China yesterday where a man stabbed 22 children and an elderly lady at a school?
You people don't realize that people are going to just find a different tool to carry out their plans.
Wouldn't the better solution be to find out what's causing these people to do these things and try to stop the source of the madness?

I agree that the best (not just better) solution would be to figure out what the root cause is and do something about it, but (A) no-one seems to be doing that, and (B) if the root cause turns out to have political implications, it's going to be an uphill battle.

As to "putting their evil plans on hold", it is a LOT harder to build a bomb than it is to use a gun, requires a LOT more prep, is easier for the authorities to detect (really, Timmy? You need 1000 lbs of fertilizer for your school science project?) and most importantly IMO is less personal. I'm just guessing here, not being a nutbar, but when a fruitloop decides he wants to go on a killing spree I'm betting he wants to see the people die at his hand. And of course end with the grand gesture of killing himself. If someone is really going to go off the deep end, I'd bet he's far more likely to go the knife route than the bomb route (if guns weren't an option).

And notwithstanding the example in China, are you REALLY going to try to take the implied stance that you can kill as many people as easily with a knife as with a gun?

[budderbear]

You could stab someone in the neck with a pencil... I guess we should outlaw those too.

[StreetDoc]

Interesting statistic on how many people have been murdered in the 20th century by their governments

[Capita2JZGTE]

Again you ignore the fact that at least in America, guns have statistically been shown to save more innocent lives than to take lives, in terms of defensive deployment vs murders; and you can argue with statistics all day in order to legitimize your agenda but the facts remain.

Obviously nobody in this forum is going to be swayed to change sides so really it's a pointless debate.

But I hope some of you can at least open your minds to all of the aspects surrounding this discussion, and to at least realize that the majority of gun owners are good decent people who truly love to go hunting, target shooting, and love the piece of mind that if they had to defend their family from a bad guy in the middle of the night that they can.

Many of you will never know how important that is to some people until you or someone you love has been killed or almost killed and literally had no way to defend yourselves.

Most of you don't know and hopefully will never know how long it actually feels like to wait for the police or the ambulance to arrive to your indefinite rescue. This is my last post on this topic but just want to leave you with a few things to consider.

[ThunderChunky]

Three things.

When people pick places to carry out these mass murders what goes through there mind? It sure as hell is not I should pick the gun club or police station. No, it's where can I kill the most people without being stopped. Somewhere unarmed.

Secondly, the real issue here is what Donutz tried brining up and everyone pretty much ignored. The gun was a proponent in the equation. So was the car he used to get there. So was the lack of security and no one noticing his signs of doing this. None of those are the cause. When we find the cause to shooting like this we can stop it while still maintaining our rights. I believe it's a cultural thing. Canada and America are culturally different. There are facts showing strict gun laws not working. It's simple. It's been done and hasn't changed anything. That points to something else. Well let's look at what is different between us and Canada besides gun laws. It's culture. Now this is hard to back up with empirical proof, but we all know America's vibe isn't like most other countries.

Lastly, the military would fucking slaughter the public of America in seconds. You have no idea the precision, power, and destruction of the military. An single drone could destroy and entire town armed with assault weapons. We pretty much defeated Iraq in the Gulf War without setting foot on the ground. And they have a legitimate army and Airforce. Granted the military wouldn't completely do this. Most would split from the military and refuse to kill citizens, but there would still be enough left to have an operational military, which would kill us all. Literally a single Division of Marine, an A-10, and a few drones would defeat the U.S. populous armed to the teeth.

[Cr0_Reps_Smit]

Originally Posted by Snowolf

No my friend, you are incorrect, those are not the weapons used. The problem with the Sandy Hook shooting is this:

to be fair he was talking about the virgina tech shootings at that particular moment.