Gun Control Debate thread

[conspiracy]

Originally Posted by ARSENALFAN

Fewer guns has to mean fewer deaths

as i pointed out that is completely opposite as it is very easy to obtain illegal weapons. they usually go from Russia to mexico then smuggled across the border

[conspiracy]

hmm... as im seeing, people look upon semi automatic weapons as worse than say pump action. thing is, they are still only one shot. its not like your blowing off 5 rounds a second. if you get good, you can easily shoot as fast as a semi with a pump action instead.

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by conspiracy

as i pointed out that is completely opposite as it is very easy to obtain illegal weapons. they usually go from Russia to mexico then smuggled across the border

And as I and others have pointed out on several occasions in this thread, this very much EXACTLY the case. Canada and other countries have fewer handguns and Canada and other countries have fewer mass killings, not only in absolute numbers but also in per-capita numbers. I've also seen statistics that say that America has one of the highest murder rates in the "civilized" world, but statistics are always suspect unless you know how they were gathered.

Again I stress that I'm not automatically assuming that slapping limits on guns will automatically reduce the problem. I AM saying that you have to figure it out and do something damned soon. This endless yelling and pointing every time the topic of guns comes up isn't helping.

[dreampow]

Originally Posted by Snowolf

Dreampow, there are very legitimate uses to have firearms in the US that don't apply to Japan. Hunting is a very legitimate sport and for many a way to feed their family. There is nothing wrong with the sport or even the sport of target shooting.

Additionally, defense from Bears really is a legitimate argument. In many bush villages in Alaska and Canada, armed citizens must escort kids to school because of Polar bears.

This is why I take a very moderate middle of the road approach to this and argue for better regulation of people and outlawing these high capacity weapons that do not serve any legitimate purpose, including some handguns like Glocks which won't do shit to stop a charging Grizzly like my single shot Ruger .44 Magnum 6 shot revolver did. Bear spray is a fucking joke when it comes to stopping a Charging Grizzly, Kodiak or Polar Bear.

Funny thing is taking a common sense middle ground position does not gain a person credibility, all it does is piss off both extremes which sadly bolsters the argument that there are very few people in the middle ground of common sense and most are extremists on one side or another.

I agree on lots of your points. I am not saying guns must be banned at all costs.

I would prefer to live in a society where guns are at least hard to get hold of and proper checks are carried out before someone can get one.

What I am trying to say is the problem here is perhaps with the US society as a whole rather than just gun laws.

These incidents are becoming all too frequent.

Like I said in Switzerland I feel safe yet guns are not uncommon (for hunting). Even in Japan people have guns for hunting but it takes a lot of time and procedure to get the license.

If guns are to be available I really think these kinds of safety procedures are needed as well as limits on the type of weapons available.

I fear there may be many more such incidents unless action is taken to at least get rid of the automatic/semi-automatic weaponry.

[MarshallV82]

Guns do not matter, I mean I don't think people need concealed weapon permits, ridiculous amounts of ammo and what not. None the less we can't take them away, it's a part of American culture. As long as there is cash there will be crime and access to weapons, so it doesn't matter anyway. Gun-Control is nothing but a band-aid policy because we can't solve the real issue at hand. Much like Pitbull bans - you can't ban stupid people [owners] so you ban the dog.

This country needs to step up and help people, or atleast identify the people that have mental issues. Throwing pills down their throats is not the solution.
We need to work on education, mental health care, and obesity. I also think Americans need to stop being so afraid of life, shit has always been this bad, it's just reported more. It's not all unicorns and rainbows out there, life gets pretty real. The sooner the younger generation realizes that the better.

When a problem occurs you go after the root cause... It's really not that hard to comprehend. Until then I'm sure the government will take whatever steps are deemed necessary. I just hope they make it tougher to obtain weapons and let responsible people go about life. I'm a pretty liberal guy and and all, but I own guns. I was raised in Wyoming...

[StreetDoc]

Originally Posted by Snowolf

If you want have a civil discussion or debate, I am eager to do so but if you want to use this insulting and pricking tone, I have nothing further to discuss with you. I am not "ignorant" of the issue or the nature of the weapons. I was not talking only about the AR-15 or stock magazines. I speaking about all of these weapons. It is a fact that you can legally purchase 50 round mags for both the AK-47 and the AR-15:

High Quality extremely durable fully encased alloy 50 round drum magazine for the AR15 AR-15 - XS Products

Now I will not stoop to your level and call you "ignorant" but will say that before you go throwing stones, you might notice that you're living in a glass house. I am having a friendly civil debate with my Canadian friend and openly admitted to a mistake; are you man enough to admit to yours?

saying you're ignorant to an issue is hardly a personal attack. Didn't mean to offend, figured the political forum would have a little thicker skin. I'm done with this forum, obviously everyone has their own opinion and that's not going to change. No use wasting time here.

[StreetDoc]

Originally Posted by Snowolf

So, the gun control debate goes on with pro`s and con`s but as some people have correctly pointed out, gun control is not the only issue. Some of our Canadian friends insist that banning handguns for example is the answer while others proclaim any gun control is unacceptable and pointless.

Well, maybe the real problem lies not with whether Americans have guns or not but with the culture of violence that has become Americana. The entire nation is in mourning over the senseless deaths of 20 children and rightly so. But we as Americans remain strangely quiet over the senseless deaths of at least 168 children in Pakistan as a direct result of our drone attacks. So it seems it isn't the deaths of children that bother us, its only the deaths of American children.

When the leadership of our country sets this kind of an example and I point the finger at both Bush and Obama, why are we surprised that we are seeing an increase in sociopathic, violent behavior? While we mourn the deaths of 20 children in Connecticut, maybe give at least a passing thought to the deaths of 168 children at our hands. These kids were no different than ours and their parents feel the loss just as keenly as the parents in Connecticut. Along with reasonable, rational gun control to get these pointless high magazine capicity weapons off of our streets, maybe we need to rethink our entire culture of violence. Just saying.....








When we as a country do this as a matter of routine "another day at the office", why are we really shocked when we produce these home grown nutjobs? Stricter gun control, while definitely needed, is not going to magically solve the issue on its own. Until we address our own lack of empathy for humanity as a culture, this kind of thing will not only continue but will escalate and I really don`t think my 6 shot revolver is the actual problem.

I have to reply one more time lol...

Do you know anyone that was deployed to afghanistan or iraq as a combat troop? The enemy purposely uses children and women in hopes we won't attack. They have their safe houses next to schools, etc. To me that's on them... war is war. Completely different from a citizen legally owning and carrying a gun.

[snowklinger]

Maybe it has been mentioned but lately I like the Swiss model. Conscription for everyone that comes with a gun and the charge to maintain it for the rest of your life after they let you quit Swissarmy.

Nobody is gonna come take our weapons away, in that sense the entire debate is just flawed. Gun owners afraid of the gov't coming to take their weapons are just paranoid.

The 2nd ammendment both creates and fills an RPG sized hole in my life.

[StreetDoc]

Snowolf, you're right about larger magazines for assault weapons, I was pointing out that they're available for pistols too. Watch a couple youtube videos of how fast someone can reload a revolver also... it might surprise you. I own a revolver and a home defense shotgun. Last week I built my first AR15, so I admit I don't know that much about them. The comments I relayed about military service came directly from my friend who got his discharge papers while he was out here snowboarding with me last week. If you're blaming our culture (and I agree with you there) maybe we need to ban violent movies, video games, rap music, and get the media out of our war zones? Guns have been around forever, these mass shootings are relatively new.

[EatRideSleep]

Originally Posted by ShredLife

Clackamas man, armed, confronts mall shooter | kgw.com Portland

This eyewitness account, assuming it is accurate, is why I personally am not against cc laws. While the gun law is strict for the state in which I live, it does not permit concealed carry. If/when I have a permit, I'd like to know I (and other law abiding citizens with some sort of training) would be able to step in to prevent something like that if possible.

Notice how the eyewitness did NOT take the shot because he feared he might hit others had he missed? That's rational, cool-headed thinking from a gun owner.

Originally Posted by ARSENALFAN

I understand the allure of a handgun. I always thought it would be kind of neat to have one. As Snowwolf pointed out, I thought it would be excellent to have one when fly fishing in Grizzly territory instead of carrying around the Remington Marine Magnum 12 guage I used to have. But they will never allow us to carry handguns in Canada so it is a mute point. We have to get a special licence, keep it locked in a case, and call the government to tell them which firing range we are going to, what time we are leaving and when we will be returning. If you mess up, your in real trouble. I now carry pepper spray but had a discussion with a friend earlier this year about getting another shotgun. I just became emotionally charged when I heard about this latest shooting and went off. I can't wrap my mind around what happened nor can I wrap my mind around how easy it is to get a gun in the US and whether there really is a need for citizens to be armed like they are. Fewer guns has to mean fewer deaths, but I understand why law abiding citizens get pissed thinking about the government slapping bans on handguns. I just think this may be the point where some freedom is given up in hopes of a safer country. I will be praying for the families tonight. What beautiful innocent children they were.

Thank you for posting your heartfelt and thoughtful response. I think we all can say we've gotten emotionally charged through the news of these deaths and throughout this thread. It is truly awful. I broke down in tears as more details emerged...especially from that of the children who were there, and the 27 yr old teacher, Vicky Soto, who lost her own life to protect her "kids." It is difficult to understand why what happened did.

Originally Posted by conspiracy

as i pointed out that is completely opposite as it is very easy to obtain illegal weapons. they usually go from Russia to mexico then smuggled across the border

I think this is a valid point. Mexico is our southern neighbor. The USA is Canada's southern neighbor. BIG difference there. While the US is not infallible, we're a far better southern border to Canada than Mexico is to us.

Originally Posted by MarshallV82

This country needs to step up and help people, or atleast identify the people that have mental issues. Throwing pills down their throats is not the solution.
We need to work on education, mental health care, and obesity. I also think Americans need to stop being so afraid of life, shit has always been this bad, it's just reported more. It's not all unicorns and rainbows out there, life gets pretty real. The sooner the younger generation realizes that the better.

This, and, people need to stop being so afraid of their kids and thinking their child is so perfect (denial). I see so many parents back down and allow them to run the show. Go into any public area, supermarket, wherever...some kids are so out of control while their parents do nothing - not even a stern word. It's like they tune them out.

Then there are those who in denial about a child's weaknesses or flaws - those who think their kid is perfect - to the point that they will mask the troubled state of their child. Perhaps some fear it will be reflected back on them. And ya know what, maybe it IS because of their parenting (or lack thereof). But concealing a child's troubled state, especially within the context of crappy parenting doesn't solve anything.

Originally Posted by Snowolf

Well, maybe the real problem lies not with whether Americans have guns or not but with the culture of violence that has become Americana. The entire nation is in mourning over the senseless deaths of 20 children and rightly so. But we as Americans remain strangely quiet over the senseless deaths of at least 168 children in Pakistan as a direct result of our drone attacks. So it seems it isn't the deaths of children that bother us, its only the deaths of American children.

When the leadership of our country sets this kind of an example and I point the finger at both Bush and Obama, why are we surprised that we are seeing an increase in sociopathic, violent behavior? While we mourn the deaths of 20 children in Connecticut, maybe give at least a passing thought to the deaths of 168 children at our hands. These kids were no different than ours and their parents feel the loss just as keenly as the parents in Connecticut. Along with reasonable, rational gun control to get these pointless high magazine capicity weapons off of our streets, maybe we need to rethink our entire culture of violence. Just saying.....:dunno

Interesting you mention the war casualties of innocent children as I was thinking it last night. It's no different than what happened in CT. It's still senseless; there are innocent children victims. I think the perspective of "war casualties" is what makes some think it is different.

There was a day care center in the WTC iirc? Innocent children killed in a terrorist attack. I really think it comes down to the perspective of war seeming justifiable. Personally, I disagree.