Gun Control Debate thread

[Edge]

I can vouch for Canada's reputation.

I've been fortunate enough to travel to both the US and Canada, and have been welcomed by very polite people every time. But back home in the UK where people haven't had that opportunity?

Very cold towards Americans. The opposite goes for Canadians. Viewed as a lot friendlier. Of course, there is good and bad everywhere.

[sleev-les]

Originally Posted by Snowolf

I'm not able to go with that. Spain and Greece have a lot worse economic issues and they are not having mass shootings in their malls and schools.

Now I do believe our lack of funding for mental health care is a contributing factor. Before Reagan, we actually had a lot more mentally ill people being cared for in institutions. In a typical right wing maneuver, he defunded most mental health care and these people were just set loose without any care or guidance.

I am with Edge in this, the most plausible explanation is the availability of these types of guns. These mass shootings are not being perpetrated with 6 shot single action revolvers.

As I said, I totally agree that law abiding citizens with conceal carry permits do statistically reduce crime. But, a 6 shot S&W model 29 revolver is plenty effective for personal protection, no one needs a damn AR-15 and a stack of 20,30 or 50 round clips for personal protection.

Of course you aren't going with that..... The difference is how Americans are spoiled and take much more for granted than Spain or Greece. Many can't adapt to a lesser time or situation.

The availability of an assault rifle isn't what starts a mass shooting. If they werent' available, I'm sure a 6 shooter would be another available tool. It all goes to the person with a mission and the will to complete it. Look at the DC sniper and that was close to me. Hunting rifle was used. I touched on want vs need and do i need an assault rifle.. No, but I have one for sport shooting. Doesn't mean I'm going postal with it because its available. In the most recent event, it still bothers me that this kids mom didn't lock those weapons up knowing her son has issues. Thats where another part of the problem is. The growing neglect of parents. Guess what Im trying to say is that each day the variables grow that can add to someones ill nature. Its not just one problem, its a bunch of them.

[sleev-les]

Originally Posted by Edge

I can vouch for Canada's reputation.

I've been fortunate enough to travel to both the US and Canada, and have been welcomed by very polite people every time. But back home in the UK where people haven't had that opportunity?

Very cold towards Americans. The opposite goes for Canadians. Viewed as a lot friendlier. Of course, there is good and bad everywhere.

and I'll agree with this.. Every Canadian I've met has been pretty friendly. Even Brit. I frequent Vegas and each time meet people from Canada and England. The difference is a breath of fresh air. Never met someone that wasn't friendly from either country.

[backstop13]

I don't agree with banning semi-automatic rifles or handguns, but I do think they should be more strictly regulated and perhaps even more hoops need to be jumped through in order to obtain them. Many of the mass murders committed were done so with handguns (in fact, handguns used in these sprees were almost double of assault rifles).

The underlying issue with all mass murders is mental instability. A majority (at least 75%) of these mass murderers had prior documented mental illnesses prior to their killing sprees. Do we blame the gun in this situation, or do we blame the lack of proper mental health care? I side with attacking the root of the problem, which is how shitty our care system is for those with mental deficiencies. My mom was recently laid off from a state ran mental institution which released 100 out of 500 patients to other care centers, while the other 400 or so were released out into the public. The reason for shutting the doors to the hospital was the state decided they couldn't fund the hospital any longer, so 400 people with mental deficiencies were just released back into the major population. They became free to obtain handguns, free to drive a car, free to do anything they wanted unchecked. Have they been taking their prescribed medications? Who knows. The state decided to declare them all mentally fit in order to justify shutting the doors. If you asked my mom if those people were stable enough to return to society as normal citizens, her opinion would be a resounding "no". If we as a society can't see the problem in that then we have bigger issues than banning weapons. Mental health has become something we as a society have pushed to the side. We pretend it's not an issue and hide from it. We are embarrassed of our family members who portray signs of mental issues, we laugh at the "crazies" and their odd behavior, but we never try to actually address the problem with the same fervor we address firearms. I know that people have touched on the fact that other countries have just as many mental issues as the states so I'm not trying to rehash that, but I think the combination of the readily available firearms mixed with a lack of care for those with mental issues is a volatile. I think both angles need to be looked at equally.

A Guide to Mass Shootings in America | Mother Jones

I personally don't think we should have an outright ban on all assault type weapons, but I also wouldn't oppose further regulation and treating them the way we currently treat fully automatic weapons: Select registered weapon from Class III FFL; apply with both federal government and local chief law enforcement officer which both must approve; apply for permit; ) The stats in our own states don't lie, some of the highest gun crime occurs in areas where guns are completely forbidden (DC, NY for example). Here is a good article regarding gun ownership in other countries:

Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive | The American Civil Rights Union

[PA n8]

Originally Posted by sleev-les

In the most recent event, it still bothers me that this kids mom didn't lock those weapons up knowing her son has issues. Thats where another part of the problem is. The growing neglect of parents. Guess what Im trying to say is that each day the variables grow that can add to someones ill nature. Its not just one problem, its a bunch of them.

This. It was pretty negligent of her to not have them properly secured. Having a child with issues these guns should have been stored securely and properly.

Honestly this should be a focal point. Instead of going after guns, educate people and show this is why weapons must be properly secured. This includes hunting knives and bows. This should be a moment that people evaluate how these items are stored and how to improved the safe storage of these items.

I am currently looking at getting a pistol soon and I have a sister that has a learning disability. I am going to make damn sure that she knows what it is and if for whatever reason she has to handle it she know how to do so safely.

[sleev-les]

Originally Posted by backstop13

I don't agree with banning semi-automatic rifles or handguns, but I do think they should be more strictly regulated and perhaps even more hoops need to be jumped through in order to obtain them. Many of the mass murders committed were done so with handguns (in fact, handguns used in these sprees were almost double of assault rifles).

The underlying issue with all mass murders is mental instability. A majority (at least 75%) of these mass murderers had prior documented mental illnesses prior to their killing sprees. Do we blame the gun in this situation, or do we blame the lack of proper mental health care? I side with attacking the root of the problem, which is how shitty our care system is for those with mental deficiencies. My mom was recently laid off from a state ran mental institution which released 100 out of 500 patients to other care centers, while the other 400 or so were released out into the public. The reason for shutting the doors to the hospital was the state decided they couldn't fund the hospital any longer, so 400 people with mental deficiencies were just released back into the major population. They became free to obtain handguns, free to drive a car, free to do anything they wanted unchecked. Have they been taking their prescribed medications? Who knows. The state decided to declare them all mentally fit in order to justify shutting the doors. If you asked my mom if those people were stable enough to return to society as normal citizens, her opinion would be a resounding "no". If we as a society can't see the problem in that then we have bigger issues than banning weapons. Mental health has become something we as a society have pushed to the side. We pretend it's not an issue and hide from it. We are embarrassed of our family members who portray signs of mental issues, we laugh at the "crazies" and their odd behavior, but we never try to actually address the problem with the same fervor we address firearms. I know that people have touched on the fact that other countries have just as many mental issues as the states so I'm not trying to rehash that, but I think the combination of the readily available firearms mixed with a lack of care for those with mental issues is a volatile. I think both angles need to be looked at equally.

A Guide to Mass Shootings in America | Mother Jones

I personally don't think we should have an outright ban on all assault type weapons, but I also wouldn't oppose further regulation and treating them the way we currently treat fully automatic weapons: Select registered weapon from Class III FFL; apply with both federal government and local chief law enforcement officer which both must approve; apply for permit The stats in our own states don't lie, some of the highest gun crime occurs in areas where guns are completely forbidden (DC, NY for example). Here is a good article regarding gun ownership in other countries:

Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive | The American Civil Rights Union

Well stated

Originally Posted by PA n8

This. It was pretty negligent of her to not have them properly secured. Having a child with issues these guns should have been stored securely and properly.

Honestly this should be a focal point. Instead of going after guns, educate people and show this is why weapons must be properly secured. This includes hunting knives and bows. This should be a moment that people evaluate how these items are stored and how to improved the safe storage of these items.

I am currently looking at getting a pistol soon and I have a sister that has a learning disability. I am going to make damn sure that she knows what it is and if for whatever reason she has to handle it she know how to do so safely.

Agreed. I have a 4 year old nephew that comes over and I don't know what I'd do if my negligence lead to him hurting himself. Hence why my guns and ammo are locked in separate safes. Even my handgun is in a small safe closer to my bed in case I do have to defend my home.

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by sleev-les

THE ROOT CAUSE is the individual so stop blaming the tools. Yet me mentioning other opportunities for these acts to occur (and even posted a story) you again pick that apart and try to believe its not possible or wouldn't happen if a gun isn't available. I'll say it again, use the proper tools to limit the risk. Stop with the gung ho hardcore stance and look at real methods to help keep guns out of the individuals hands that have the potential to do harm. (class, psych eval, permit renewal etc etc).

That's just great. I chide you for concentrating on the gun banning issue and suggest you think more about the root causes, and you respond by chiding me about the gun banning issue and telling me I should be more concerned about the root causes. Despite the fact the I brought up the question of root causes at the beginning of this thread and have stated several times that just demanding that guns be banned is a knee-jerk reaction. You really don't have anything do you? You're just a bag of air and NRA talking points.

[backstop13]

There's a lot of issues that need to be addressed, and like you said Donutz, we don't need to do it with a knee-jerk reaction based thinking.


There are so many questions I have regarding this issue...

What possesses gun owners to have guns out in the open, free for anyone to grab and use? Not to mention, wide open when the members of your home have documented mental issues?

Where was the local school police officer? I'm not saying he/she could have stopped the attack, but for a school with a brand new security system installed I would think they would have had a local officer at the school. When I was in high school we always had an officer at the school. I don't have kids of my own yet, but those who do say there's trained, full time officers at the school during all operational hours?

Furthermore, my place of work has a more stringent policy for allowing visitors on site. Why are school so easy to access and get into? Hell, I have to badge in through three or four doors to even get out to the offices and out to the shop floor? Why would schools not have a reception area that requires badge access or other type security before parents or random strangers can get into the class rooms? Makes no sense to me.

[KIRKRIDER]

Just heard on the radio: "One retarded failed shoe bomber and we have to take our shoes off at every airport, but we cant do nothing about this? (gun AND Mental health control) ? Why someone that mentally disturbed was allowed to own guns?

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by Donutz

That's just great. I chide you for concentrating on the gun banning issue and suggest you think more about the root causes, and you respond by chiding me about the gun banning issue and telling me I should be more concerned about the root causes. Despite the fact the I brought up the question of root causes at the beginning of this thread and have stated several times that just demanding that guns be banned is a knee-jerk reaction. You really don't have anything do you? You're just a bag of air and NRA talking points.

Further to this, I guess my frustration is showing here. What I'm seeing, both in this thread and in debates of this kind in all other forms of media, is that the don't-ban-guns crowd don't seem to care about what the issue is or isn't, as long as you don't ban guns. And these same people will work like crazy to make sure no new gun restrictions are enacted, but won't lift so much as an eyelash to do anything beyond that.

I'm becoming of the opinion that the American anti-gun lobby should start pushing for a gun ban, and HARD, not because anyone thinks it'll actually solve the problem, but simply to force the NRA types to work to find an alternative instead of just brushing it off.