Gun Control Debate thread

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by backstop13

The point was, that we as Americans, don't have the all or nothing attitude against alcohol that we do towards guns. You misinterpret me when you think I want all guns no matter what. You yourself have railed against the all or nothing attitude, and I was merely pointing out that we don't have that attitude towards alcohol.

Yeah, strangely we have a dim view of people going into a school and shooting a bunch of children. BAD donutz. BAD.

For fuck sakes, are you actually trying to imply that these are morally equivalent?

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by backstop13

Again, I still think the issue is more than firearms. 75% of the mass murderers in the last 30 years had a diagnosed mental health issue prior to their killing sprees. Why these people weren't kept in check by family or by more thorough background checks is beyond me.

Or maybe a little bit better medical system and social safety net, so people would actually have the capability to seek treatment for themselves or their family? Oh, that's right, the republicans don't like SOCIALISM. It's ok if some kids get killed, as long as we don't get SOCIALISM.

Seriously, the same people who are blocking any attempt to control firearms are the same people who are blocking any attempt to implement a system that would allow some options for mentally ill people, for people with no hope, for people who are backed into a corner, etc. Funny that. And yet no one suggests maybe the republican should change their stance on that a little. Oh, that's right, that might lead to SOCIALISM.

Boogetty boogetty.

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by PA n8

We are also forgetting one important thing... we need guns for when the zombie apocalypse happens

3 more days....

[backstop13]

Originally Posted by Donutz

Yeah, strangely we have a dim view of people going into a school and shooting a bunch of children. BAD donutz. BAD.

For fuck sakes, are you actually trying to imply that these are morally equivalent?

No i'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that we should have the same vitriol towards both subjects. Regardless of the method, 10,000 people die each year in the states to both alcohol and guns. Their are 20,000 families out there grieving for loved ones removed way too early due to means that should be controlled more.

Again, I'm not advocating for keeping all guns or for banning all guns. There's a line in the middle that I think we should be striving for. Knee-jerk reactions one way or the other are what we need to be avoiding.

[cc898]

"We are also forgetting one important thing... we need guns for when the zombie apocalypse happens "

Shoot, now I have a reason to own an M4!

[backstop13]

Originally Posted by Donutz

Or maybe a little bit better medical system and social safety net, so people would actually have the capability to seek treatment for themselves or their family? Oh, that's right, the republicans don't like SOCIALISM. It's ok if some kids get killed, as long as we don't get SOCIALISM.

Seriously, the same people who are blocking any attempt to control firearms are the same people who are blocking any attempt to implement a system that would allow some options for mentally ill people, for people with no hope, for people who are backed into a corner, etc. Funny that. And yet no one suggests maybe the republican should change their stance on that a little. Oh, that's right, that might lead to SOCIALISM.

Boogetty boogetty.

Not sure if you're speaking directly to me as if i'm some crazy right winger, but if you are, fucking chill bro. I posted nearly the same thing earlier (pg 29):

Originally Posted by backstop13

The underlying issue with all mass murders is mental instability. A majority (at least 75%) of these mass murderers had prior documented mental illnesses prior to their killing sprees. Do we blame the gun in this situation, or do we blame the lack of proper mental health care? I side with attacking the root of the problem, which is how shitty our care system is for those with mental deficiencies. My mom was recently laid off from a state ran mental institution which released 100 out of 500 patients to other care centers, while the other 400 or so were released out into the public. The reason for shutting the doors to the hospital was the state decided they couldn't fund the hospital any longer, so 400 people with mental deficiencies were just released back into the major population. They became free to obtain handguns, free to drive a car, free to do anything they wanted unchecked. Have they been taking their prescribed medications? Who knows. The state decided to declare them all mentally fit in order to justify shutting the doors. If you asked my mom if those people were stable enough to return to society as normal citizens, her opinion would be a resounding "no". If we as a society can't see the problem in that then we have bigger issues than banning weapons. Mental health has become something we as a society have pushed to the side. We pretend it's not an issue and hide from it. We are embarrassed of our family members who portray signs of mental issues, we laugh at the "crazies" and their odd behavior, but we never try to actually address the problem with the same fervor we address firearms. I know that people have touched on the fact that other countries have just as many mental issues as the states so I'm not trying to rehash that, but I think the combination of the readily available firearms mixed with a lack of care for those with mental issues is a volatile. I think both angles need to be looked at equally.

the fact that I own firearms does not make me some republitard who can't reason with the other side. I've said many times that I think reform is in order, but an all out ban isn't the answer. Not every person in the south with a gun is a republican afraid of the socialism boogie-man.

[cc898]

[/QUOTE]the fact that I own firearms does not make me some republitard who can't reason with the other side. I've said many times that I think reform is in order, but an all out ban isn't the answer. Not every person in the south with a gun is a republican afraid of the socialism boogie-man.[/QUOTE]

Republitard! HAHAHAH I like that one. Works in the north as well I think.

[backstop13]

Originally Posted by cc898

Republitard! HAHAHAH I like that one. Works in the north as well I think.

haha I can't claim that one, I think I actually picked it up from either Snowolf or Donutz

[ThunderChunky]

Originally Posted by Snowolf

And this is why the problem persists! It seems both sides of this argument are so polarized and adamant that their view is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong.

Thunderchunky, it is attitudes like yours that caused me to quit the NRA! I first joined as a result of their hunter safety program that was a requirement in Montana to get a hunting license as a minor. They do some good work, but I got sick of their bull headed nimbyism and refusal to be proactive in assisting in the drafting of even the most reasonable of gun regulations. They conduct skewed surveys and create slanted "documentaries" to bolster their agenda and all the while refuse to come to the table and discuss.

You keep saying the same NRA talking points and repeat them over and over and over again and don't even come up for air long enought have even objectively read the material that Bones provided. You guys on that side only know one strategy, yell NO the loudest and when any data or opinion challenges your position, stick your fingers in your ears and yell, " la la la la la I can't hear you!".

You keep regurgitating the same talking point of "gun bans don't work" but they absolutely do! Fully automatic machine guns have been all but outlawed in this country and with all of these rampages, these nuts are not stealing fully automatic weapons to commit these acts. The reason is obvious; they are very difficult to aquire. After Columbine, Clinton signed the assault weapons ban and while the overall crime rates may have gone up, mass shootings involving these weapons went down. Since Bush repealed the assault weapons ban, we have seen more mass shootings with assault weapons than ever; even though the oversleep murder rates are dropping. Gun restriction absolutely does have an effect!

Now on the flip side, we have the "ban all guns" crowd who are just as bull headed and refuse to admit that guns have a legal, legitimate function in American society. Their refusal to respect people's views about hunting and personal protection alienates sensible moderates just as much as the "gun nuts" do.

A sensible balance can be achieved in reasonable gun control that both sides can live with if they would just shut up long enough to be objective and look at other's ideas and sit down at the table and compromise. I am a gun owner and support gun ownership. I believe sane, law abiding citizens who are trained and licensed to pack absolutely are a big deterrent to crimes like this. I think school administrators should have gun training from local law enforcement and should be armed. A teacher or principal or janitor trsined and armed COULD have maybe dropped this sick mother fucker sooner and even if it only saved 1 life, its worth it.

It is true that in a lot of situations, an armed civilian isn't going to change the outcome like in the Aurora shooting. But, given a choice between a slim chance and no chance, I'm voting for slim chance.

Having said that, there is no need for these fucking AK-47's, AR-15's and others with high capacity, rapid reload magazines for any purpose. No, banning them won't stop someone from using a 6 shot revolver to kill but until we solve the root cause, let's try to limit the amount of damage these freaks can do. If the assault weapons ban was reinstated, I honestly believe it will reduce the frequency that these types of guns are used in crimes like this. If all it does is stop one mass shooting, or result in 10 dead instead of 30, it is worth it. Not a solution, but it is a step.

We absolutely can become a more sensible nation without totally giving up our gun heritage, but that change will never come about by demogogues on the polar extremes of the issue tossing out their talking points and trying to outshout each other. It is going to come from us moderates who respect the positions of both sides and work to compromise and strike a balance. Unfortunately in our political climate of extremism and pokarization, no one is more hated than the moderate who seems to piss off both sides!

Those facts are from the FBI and the the police organizations in the cities that had those bans. In no way is that biased. I am not against gun regulation. I live in the state with THE strictest gun laws. I think it is is perfectly fine with the exception of a few things. Banning certain types of weapons isn't the answer if you wanna talk about gun control. Making it harder to get them is the right answer. It allows the good people to get them and those who wish to do harm not to. It keeps our rights intact while still putting a temporary fix for these shootings.

Also, when I was referring to the crime, I was referring to everything except mass shooting like this. I have no idea how I was "plugging my ears to his idea." They were wrong. Clinton himself recognized his law didn't work. Strict gun controls are put into place and crime doesn't change, and if it does it goes up. What more to it is there. It doesn't work. It's facts. I hate the NRA they are ignorant. I am with you.

I read his links. Half of them didn't work and the rest were babbling about nothing. I look at the facts. Gun control laws put into place in America. Crime didn't go down. Someone tells me they worked and should be put back into place. Those are people who ignore the facts and plug their ears in order to deny the truth.

Why put laws into place that don't haven't worked theoretically, or empirically?

[cc898]

Here is just one more thought about gun control.

Montana as a state has one of the highest per capita gun ownership rates in the country, and some of the most relaxed gun laws in the nation. You can buy an M4(I hate to say assault rifle, since its nothing more than an ugly.22) at the freakin walmart...no joke. Yet we have never, as far as all the records I have looked at go, had a similar mass shooting. What does that say?

We have had our fair share of crazies, don't get me wrong! But they don't seem to choose a gun as their weapon very often. Knives mostly.