Gun Control Debate thread

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by cc898

Campaign for Armed Self-defence - a no-compromise pro gun UK forum - Index

Here is one link the unhappy Brits.

that's it? Your whole thesis that Britain has had ongoing and widespread tightening of gun controls is based on one pro-gun website, which (surprise of all surprises) takes a dim view of gun control? Fuck me with a broomstick.

There is no slippery slope because Britain, like Canada, has ALWAYS had tight gun control. These people want to go UPHILL (shredding the metaphor a bit here) and are pissed because the gov't won't give in.

[KIRKRIDER]

Originally Posted by Noreaster

Yeah, given enough time, patience and determination you can probably train a pet monkey to kill in large numbers by expertly using a slingshot.

[Donutz]

I think I need to bring this thread back into focus a little. The original point was that the US has a stupid amount of mass killings compared to the rest of the world, both on an absolute and on a per-capita basis. The question was, and remains, WHY? It was pointed out that the gun culture is the low-hanging fruit, is going to be the first thing to be blamed, but is a facile and unconvincing argument just by itself. And just to quiet those who see a conspiracy under every tree, this was pointed out by NON-gun-advocates.

Unfortunately, the gun advocates don't seem to be able to have an intelligent discussion about it. Every attempt to discuss the issue gets met with either an attempt to deflect anger (It's THE MEDIA!!! THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA!!!!) or to turn the debate into a hot-button talking point (DON'T BAN OUR GUNS!!!! DON'T BAN OUR GUNS!!!!!) or to show by convoluted "logic" that guns are much less dangerous than we think and that the fact that most of these victims are being killed by guns is either a coincidence or a conspiracy by the MAINSTREAM MEDIA!!!!

Fuck, do you hear yourselves? I have nothing against guns, and if I lived in the interior I'd probably own one. But most of you seem to want to have sex with yours.

You want a reason why you should start thinking about this rationally? OK, here's one. Sooner or later, if not this time then next time, there's going to be enough momentum to get something done. For all the screaming and yelling, the decision about what to do will be made by those who at least seem to be behaving rationally. If you're acting like a total over-the-top gun nut, your opinion will be ignored as extremist. If you are demanding absolutely no compromise, absolutely no control, absolutely no change, your opinion will be ignored as extremist. Even the NRA has figured that out and is taking a more controlled and moderate stance this time around (at least so far). Be a constructive part of the debate, or be ignored. It's as simple as that.

Rant over. Now back to our regularly scheduled armageddon.

[CheeseForSteeze]

Originally Posted by Donutz

And you are trying to paint a picture where a guy with a gun is less dangerous than a guy with a knife. Oh, you're not actually coming out and SAYING it, because it would sound moronic and rightfully so. But you'll happily point out that killing running people with a gun isn't easy, while ignoring the fact that killing running people with a knife is even harder. You'll talk about the chance to run while a guy is dealing with a jammed gun while ignoring the fact that the moment a guy sticks a knife in a person he has a very good chance of having his arm grabbed.

No one is trying to say either is more dangerous than the other because objects by themselves have no inherent danger. It is completely situational. You're inventing a scenario in your mind where you are comparing a situation where an individual used a firearm and then comparing that exact same scenario with an individual using a knife. That's as ludicrous as comparing someone riding a steep AK pow line with a Jones Flagship to him riding it with an Arbor Draft and saying that proves the Flagship is a more effective snowboard. All weapons have advantages and disadvantages. A knife is cheaper and easier to learn to use. It is quieter and more concealable. It's more easy to obtain. It's easier to carry multiple knives. So of course a person who commits mass murder by having a shootout in the food court of a mall wouldn't be able to do the same thing with a knife. But it doesn't mean he couldn't kill as many people. If I had to kill a bunch of people with a knife, I'd do so in an area where it's easy to isolate people, with hallways and narrow passageways. I wouldn't pick a food court.

You point out that Lepine killed more people because they didn't resist while ignoring the gaping fact that the reason they didn't resist was because he had a gun. If he'd had a knife they would have just scattered.

That's because the media and society has in general has bred a mentality that the best way to try to survive when presented with a madman (not a mugger) is to just cower.

And you happily ignore the greatest single flaw in your dance -- the fact that every nutcase who wants to go out and kill a bunch of people for whatever reason these lunatics do so, does it with guns. Why? Is he saying "I'll do this with a harder weapon to give my victims a sporting chance" ? Of course not. He's grabbing guns because he knows, just as well as you know and I know and anyone with an ounce of sense knows, that he will be able to kill more people more thoroughly more easily with guns. Period. Apparently the lunatics agree with me, not with you.

Tell you what. You amass a set of statistics showing that on average more people get killed per knifing incident than per shooting incident, and we'll talk some more. Untill then, I really am tired of belabouring the obvious.

The onus is on gun-control proponents to demonstrate why passing laws to making guns more difficult to obtain by law-abiding citizens will make society safer. Like I said prior, if you destroyed large amounts of guns (as logistically silly an undertaking that would be) you would expect less murders with guns. But simply creating less murders with guns isn't the goal. What places like AUS and UK have shown is that there isn't an appreciable difference in the number of homicides overall.

Gun control, quite simply, is a solution looking for a problem. It has not been shown that gun control, in The United States, would make it appreciably harder for criminals to obtain guns nor make society safer in an aggregate measure.

[2hipp4u]

Originally Posted by Donutz

Let's be honest here, that's total horseshit. We don't even have an outright ban in Canada.

Once again, the right wing gun nuts try to turn ANY discussion at all into a shreiking, freaking, OH MY GOD THEY'RE GOING TO BAN OUR GUNS!!!!!! OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!

Call it horseshit all you want, its my educated opinion based on what I read, hear and see.

Don't know why you throw Canada in the conversation as I don't recall bringing anything up about it.

As far as being a rightwing gun nut you know nothing of my political affiliation. Let me just say I claim none with any of the parasites on the left or right.

My guns don't protect me from my government who are beyond enept, they protect me and my family from all the human refuse walking around this planet.

[KIRKRIDER]

Originally Posted by Donutz

I think I need to bring this thread back into focus a little. The original point was that the US has a stupid amount of mass killings AND WARS. Don't forget One or more war PER GENERATION compared to the rest of the world,

It's a combination of Mil/Ind complex brainwashing, Complete lack of a Health care systems to help those psychos (and their insane parents) and a general paranoid idea that you need to defend ourself from....I don't know who. All sprinkled with general ignorance and fear, paired by a sexual attraction to guns.


I think something is starting to move. Like the TRUTH campaign against smoking...seemed silly 10 years ago. No one smokes cigarettes anymore now...or almost.
Keep it up! Evolve!

[poutanen]

Originally Posted by Donutz

There is no slippery slope because Britain, like Canada, has ALWAYS had tight gun control. These people want to go UPHILL (shredding the metaphor a bit here) and are pissed because the gov't won't give in.

Actually tougher gun control in Canada only came around in the last 30 years or so... I hate to quote wiki but it's pretty thorough on our laws.

Gun politics in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Noreaster

Point is there's no available tool other than a gun that is as easily operated by an untrained individual, able to inflict the greatest amount of destruction in the shortest period of time and allows a perpetrator physical distance from his(her) victims maximizing his chances at staying alive and thus, bringing more carnage.

How about a molotov cocktail? Go to gas station. Buy bottle of pop and a lighter, take a paper towel from the washroom. Drink pop. Fill bottle with gas, lighter fluid, etc. etc. etc. Stuff rag in, light it, throw it at people...

Maybe the reason these sick fucks choose a gun is it's the easiest thing to turn on themselves after? Most are cowards after all...

I don't think anyone is saying there shouldn't be reasonable regulation (and again I think our current regulation in Canada is reasonable) but outright bans are not the answer.

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by poutanen

I don't think anyone is saying there shouldn't be reasonable regulation (and again I think our current regulation in Canada is reasonable) but outright bans are not the answer.

They're not even the question.

Originally Posted by poutanen

Actually tougher gun control in Canada only came around in the last 30 years or so

Controls on civilian use of firearms date from the early days of Confederation, when justices of the peace could impose penalties for carrying a handgun without reasonable cause.

There've been additional laws passed over the years, but none have changed the fundamental "flavour" of gun ownership in Canada. Rifles OK, pistols bad. Canadians by and large see guns as tools, not fetishes.

Originally Posted by poutanen

How about a molotov cocktail? Go to gas station. Buy bottle of pop and a lighter, take a paper towel from the washroom. Drink pop. Fill bottle with gas, lighter fluid, etc. etc. etc. Stuff rag in, light it, throw it at people...

That's still more work and less certain than a gun. Plus the molotov clips are much smaller and harder to reload.

Originally Posted by poutanen

Maybe the reason these sick fucks choose a gun is it's the easiest thing to turn on themselves after? Most are cowards after all...

Tempting to demonize them, but they're probably not. Insane, yes. Sociopaths, yes. And why are you working so hard to deflect the idea that a gun is a simple and effective way to kill people? Tell you what. When you start taking molotov cocktails or kitchen knives on camping and hunting trips as your main weapons, we'll talk some more.

[Noreaster]

Originally Posted by poutanen

How about a molotov cocktail? Go to gas station. Buy bottle of pop and a lighter, take a paper towel from the washroom. Drink pop. Fill bottle with gas, lighter fluid, etc. etc. etc. Stuff rag in, light it, throw it at people...

Maybe the reason these sick fucks choose a gun is it's the easiest thing to turn on themselves after? Most are cowards after all...

And what prevents them from throwing molotovs AND THEN turning their guns on themselves? Explosives are imprecise, cumbersome to construct and carry, involving too many variables for successful outcome. But most of all explosives are impersonal.

[Donutz]

Originally Posted by 2hipp4u

Don't know why you throw Canada in the conversation as I don't recall bringing anything up about it.

And I have to wait for you permission?

The reason I bring up Canada specifically is because I live here and am most familiar with it. But the general statement works with pretty much any country -- we don't have anywhere near the number of mass killings that you do, it it would be nice to figure out why. We also don't have the gun culture you have, and yet despite the right-wing rhetoric, we're not oppressed by our tyrannical government. In fact the Canadian government is far more afraid of the Canadian voter than the US government is of the US voter.

As to your "educated opinion", saying it doesn't make it so. Even just in this thread, the only people who are talking about gun bans are the pro-gun people, and only so they can shoot that straw man.