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Old 11-28-2010, 01:50 PM   #81 (permalink)
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As you say....."The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." Beside..what superstition has to do with...Political discussion?

Actually I'll send money to this guys:



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Old 11-28-2010, 02:23 PM   #82 (permalink)
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That was great... I wonder if we can get that recorded in those vocal christmas cards ... that'll be a trip
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:54 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Keep in mind, I haven't read this whole thread, it is tiring to me.

I would usually be more than inclined to join this debate. Unfortunately it would necessitate the revealing of my beliefs. The problem with that, is that everyone in here is trying to change everyone elses mind.

What the hell is wrong with all of you? Can't you just let people believe whatever the fuck they want? Why is it so important to force your view point down everyone elses throat. Believe in God, or don't believe in god. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. I will let you believe whatever it is you want, and I expect the same from you. The argument that anyone is less intelligent because of what they believe is ridiculous as well. Belief has nothing to do with intelligence.

Get over yourselves.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:19 PM   #84 (permalink)
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no, but belief has a whole lot to do with intelligence lol.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:35 PM   #85 (permalink)
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The problem with that, is that everyone in here is trying to change everyone elses mind.

What the hell is wrong with all of you? ..etc
The thing is, J, everyone who is posting or reading this forum is doing so voluntarily. We're not showing up at your door or phoning you during dinner. All you have to do, all anyone has to do, is not read the thread. For those that do want to discuss (or argue, or have screaming fits, or whatever), it's here.

You've got a complete right to your belief system, and as long as you don't try to shove it down my throat, I won't try to shove it down yours. See here http://www.snowboardingforum.com/pol...tml#post307067 For a longer commentary on that.

But if you open a thread on this forum (or anywhere, really) on the subject, expect debate.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:35 PM   #86 (permalink)
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no, but belief has a whole lot to do with intelligence lol.


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Originally Posted by Donutz View Post
The thing is, J, everyone who is posting or reading this forum is doing so voluntarily. We're not showing up at your door or phoning you during dinner. All you have to do, all anyone has to do, is not read the thread. For those that do want to discuss (or argue, or have screaming fits, or whatever), it's here.

You've got a complete right to your belief system, and as long as you don't try to shove it down my throat, I won't try to shove it down yours. See here http://www.snowboardingforum.com/pol...tml#post307067 For a longer commentary on that.

But if you open a thread on this forum (or anywhere, really) on the subject, expect debate.
I agree, debating in a public forum is completely acceptable. I don't mind at all when people debate facts. Debate over opinion is about as useless as an asshole on your elbow. It begins with the OP (who clearly has no understanding of "atheism").

The problem that I have isn't in the debate. It lies in the overwhelming attitude that those who believe in a "diety" are unable to think rationally, unable to reason. I see no correlation.

I am not going to join this "debate". It is fruitless, and lacking in substance.
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:04 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Haven't we been through this before?

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/pol...-religion.html

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/pol...on-action.html

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/pol...od-exists.html


First off, this is not a political discussion, wrong section of the forum.

Second, let's save a lot of time an effort and just summarize what's going to happen in this thread:

1) You say god exists.
2) Nearly everyone else here disagrees with you.
3) You claim we have no proof your god doesn't exist while offering no proof that he does exist and no proof that other deities don't exist.
4) We point out the double standard.
5) You ignore any good points, good questions, or citations noting the big giant gaping holes in your logic while at the same time calling people names and saying how stupid they are (even as you misspell the sentence in which you call them stupid). You try to act like an intellectual (fooling nobody) and offer up the titles of several books that anybody who has seen your posts has a hard time believing you actually read.
6) I laugh at you and ask how you tie your shoes by yourself.
7) You go WAY off topic, tell us the problem with our logic is obvious, but refuse to actually identify the problem. Then you tell me my posts are obscene while ignoring your long history of personal attacks and childish posts here.
8) Paolo comes along and confuses you with his big words.
8) You claim debate victory, willfully or woefully ignorant of the fact that you are the only one claiming it and that you have just dumbfounded everyone reading this thread with such a claim.
10) We don't hear from you for 5 more weeks until you come back to troll this atheism vs. religion subject matter again.

Best post I have seen on this site.
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Old 11-28-2010, 06:32 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by J.Schaef View Post
The problem that I have isn't in the debate. It lies in the overwhelming attitude that those who believe in a "diety" are unable to think rationally, unable to reason. I see no correlation.

I am not going to join this "debate". It is fruitless, and lacking in substance.
First, it isn't really fruitless. I'll get back to that in a minute. Second, I kind of like that we're about to have a debate on the subject of debate. Makes me a little dizzy

I do have a problem with your second sentence above about overwhelming attitudes. *I* have a problem with people who think it's ok for *them* to have a behaviour, but not for them to be subject to it. Go climb onto christnet for a few minutes, and then tell me you don't see the same attitude towards non-theists or even non-christians. Or non-fundamentalists if you aren't one. Then climb onto physorg and look up posts by the likes of kevinrts. A more contemptuous, dismissive, and insultings set of posts is hard to find, all aimed at those who don't believe in his deity. So DO NOT get all boo-hoo about how theists are treated here. And let's not get too far away from the fact that this thread was started by clubmyke posting a quote that was contentious and was intended by CM to be so. His donning a cloak of injured innocence afterwards is pretty much standard practice for him.

Last, I'll get back to that first point. This type of debate isn't really for the benefit of clubmyke or myself. Neither of us is going to convince the other of anything. This is about lurkers -- that great mass of listeners who haven't necessarily made up their minds yet. They get to look at the debate *and* at the style of debate which is just as important, and hopefully it helps them make up their minds about theism. Keeping quiet would be a disservice to them, because it would give the false impression that theism is normal, reasonable, and inevitable.
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Old 11-28-2010, 06:53 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Your point is well thought out. I agree that you could go on christnet and find some obserdity. I am fairly disappointed that most modern day believers (of nearly any religion) could likely not tell you why they believe, or even what exactly they believe. (this just refers to my experience in North America)

I suppose in that sense you are correct, if I thought that a snowboarding forum was the place to present this type of information, maybe I would show my cards a little more.

I guess I should expound a bit more on what attitude I am talking about.

Non-theists typically want all theists to hear their logical, and rational breakdown of why a God can't/doesn't exist. This is fine, if you want to enter into a pissing contest. What is the point of "debate" when neither side is open to what the other has to say. Why are you capable of determining what is a "normal, reasonable, and inevitable" belief system for someone else? Is this not the same type of fundamentalism that "Christians" propose? I am right, you are wrong.

This is where the problem lies, nobody is willing to hear the other out. Both sides are incredibly closed minded. I think this is where the true ignorance lies.

"When I left him, I reasoned thus with myself: I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do. In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know."
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:25 PM   #90 (permalink)
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I suppose in that sense you are correct, if I thought that a snowboarding forum was the place to present this type of information, maybe I would show my cards a little more.
Strictly speaking, you're correct. It does seem pretty odd, but then I think there's more of a community here than you'd strictly expect, so we're a little more willing to have beer-around-the-table discussions. There's also not the feeling of anonymity here that you get on usenet, so people generally temper their resposnses based on the possibility that they'll meet this person someday. (Even BurtonAvenger -- yeah, that's him pulling his punches )

Quote:
Non-theists typically want all theists to hear their logical, and rational breakdown of why a God can't/doesn't exist.
Not quite. You should refer to that URL I supplied a few posts back. Most non-theists couldn't care less, unless the theists bring it up. If a theist says to me "I believe in God", I'm not going to argue with him. I'm going to say "That's nice. What board do you have?". But if a theist says "Only someone lacking in common sense would assume that the perfect order we see in the universe could happen without a creator/designer" they're going to get both barrels. Sorry, but if you're going to say something confrontational, you're going to get a confrontation.

And just to clarify, although it's beside the point, I don't argue against the possible existance of a deity -- I argue against the existance of the hands-on, no-sparrow-shall-fall, prayer-answering, creation-by-wand-waving, soul-damning version that the fundamentalist christians are always trying to foist on us. Because that version *is* subject to falsification tests, unlike the more generic version.
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