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Old 02-04-2013, 11:50 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Leo how does the new proto ride different?!!?!?!?

don't say "cuz harmonic thingys"
Different camber profile with less pressure going to the tips (similar to EC2 vs. C2 for Mervin). Have not tried it myself, but our reviewers/buyers complained about the lack of pop compared to the old Proto (again, same as for EC2).
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:53 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Let's not bring up points about the psychology of getting free gear without bringing up the points about the psychology of defending your purchase.
And there is that. Another reason that any review that is not transparently paid for by consumers should always be taken with a good pinch (handful?) of salt.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:03 AM   #43 (permalink)
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The fundamental issue with most 'reviews' is who effectively pays for them. There is a reason that organizations from Consumer Report to serious restaurant reviewers either purchase/pay for all the items they review or return them after the review:
Only if the reviewers are not funded by the producers can one eliminate the conflict of interest and (perceived) bias.
Organizations like Consumer Report have PAID employees to go out and do these unbiased researches.

Serious Restaurant reviewer status means one of two things:

A. You are employed by a magazine or similar media
B. You have a very popular blog

In both cases, you are PAID. Albeit via advertisements if it's a blog.

What's my point? You can't compare reviewers like snowboarders to these PAID people.

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holds for almost any 'product' - note the ignominious role played by the credit rating agencies in the recent financial crisis or by equity research analysts during the .com boom - both these groups were effectively paid by the issuers/companies for their 'reviews' and the results were predictable.

Note that this even the case for indirect funding - e.g., car magazines do not get 'free' cars that they get to keep after their reviews. However, economically they depend on advertising from the exact same manufacturers and they can ill afford to 'bite the hand that feeds them'. As a result, most reviews are overwhelmingly positive.
Where is your source for this? If my memory serves me right, I remember reading several car magazines mentioning they have so-and-so car in the company garage. Now whether or not it was bought by said company, who knows? I'm more inclined to believe they obtained that exotic sports car from a manufacturer.

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Sounds nice but practically completely impossible/not workable. Who is going to 'anoint' the reviewers that are going to get all this free gear? And it provides even more motivation for manufacturers to provide 'incentives' in order to secure positive reviews - say NS sending over 20 instead of 10 boards, Mervin including a few Cyrus decks in the review batch, etc.
You misunderstood him I believe.

I for one have access to lots of free gear. Well, admittedly not so much the case lately as I'm phasing myself out of my current job. But for the past three years, I worked for a snowboard retailer. Long story short, I haven't paid for a board out of pocket in almost 4 years.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:06 AM   #44 (permalink)
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This is definitely an interesting debate, and one I often struggle with on my site. I usually opt to purchase gear I review, but if I can land reviews through demo's that's definitely a preference. With the NS boards, I generally hit up the factory to grab a board to review if any are available. I'll spend a week or two on the board, and bring it back once I'm done. If I like a given board I purchase one for that season. During a review I carry a notepad ironically, and when I find something worth noting, I'll stop riding, make a note and continue with my run, or perhaps wait until the end of the run to make notes. Regardless, every reviewer is going to be different, and hopefully most of them can remain objective during reviews.

Just my two cents..

On a completely different note, I'm looking forward to seeing the reviews!
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:08 AM   #45 (permalink)
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And there is that. Another reason that any review that is not transparently paid for by consumers should always be taken with a good pinch (handful?) of salt.
No, no... that wasn't my point.

My point is that I'm more likely find a reviewer to be more credible than a consumer. Even if the reviewer was given the product. Unless said reviewer only reviews that one brand.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:28 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The fundamental issue with most 'reviews' is who effectively pays for them. There is a reason that organizations from Consumer Report to serious restaurant reviewers either purchase/pay for all the items they review or return them after the review:
Only if the reviewers are not funded by the producers can one eliminate the conflict of interest and (perceived) bias.
Organizations like Consumer Report have PAID employees to go out and do these unbiased researches.

Serious Restaurant reviewer status means one of two things:

A. You are employed by a magazine or similar media
B. You have a very popular blog

In both cases, you are PAID. Albeit via advertisements if it's a blog.

What's my point? You can't compare reviewers like snowboarders to these PAID people.
I completely agree, but you are missing my point: Unless the consumer (and not the manufacturer) effectively pays for the reviews (like in the Consumer Report example), there is always going to be conflict of interest and a potential/perceived bias.
That is not a slight on or fault of the reviewer (you or anybody else), but simply a direct result of the structure/system.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hktrdr View Post
holds for almost any 'product' - note the ignominious role played by the credit rating agencies in the recent financial crisis or by equity research analysts during the .com boom - both these groups were effectively paid by the issuers/companies for their 'reviews' and the results were predictable.

Note that this even the case for indirect funding - e.g., car magazines do not get 'free' cars that they get to keep after their reviews. However, economically they depend on advertising from the exact same manufacturers and they can ill afford to 'bite the hand that feeds them'. As a result, most reviews are overwhelmingly positive.
Where is your source for this? If my memory serves me right, I remember reading several car magazines mentioning they have so-and-so car in the company garage. Now whether or not it was bought by said company, who knows? I'm more inclined to believe they obtained that exotic sports car from a manufacturer.
You misunderstood. Generally car magazines certainly do no not purchase the cars - but they do not get to keep them either. What happens is that the vehicles are provided (free of charge) by the manufacturers or dealers and returned after the tests.

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Quote:
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Sounds nice but practically completely impossible/not workable. Who is going to 'anoint' the reviewers that are going to get all this free gear? And it provides even more motivation for manufacturers to provide 'incentives' in order to secure positive reviews - say NS sending over 20 instead of 10 boards, Mervin including a few Cyrus decks in the review batch, etc.
You misunderstood him I believe.

I for one have access to lots of free gear. Well, admittedly not so much the case lately as I'm phasing myself out of my current job. But for the past three years, I worked for a snowboard retailer. Long story short, I haven't paid for a board out of pocket in almost 4 years.
No, I was clear on what he said. My point is that this does nothing to address the inherent conflict of interest.

Last edited by hktrdr; 02-05-2013 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:30 AM   #47 (permalink)
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No, no... that wasn't my point.

My point is that I'm more likely find a reviewer to be more credible than a consumer. Even if the reviewer was given the product. Unless said reviewer only reviews that one brand.
I understood your point. What I was saying was that both types of reviews have potential for bias. As a result, I would never rely entirely on either one.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:49 AM   #48 (permalink)
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You're missing my point again. And then you'll miss mine... and then we'll just do the tango... then you'll buy me dinner... finally, I still won't give you the booty.

Seriously though, I was emphasizing that snowboard reviewers aren't paid. So it's unreasonable to expect them not to accept free gear for reviews (not saying you expect it, general statement here).

I bring up the purchaser bias because it very well could be a bigger bias than a hooked up reviewer.

So we fall into a hole that goes absolutely nowhere.

In the end, we should all just fucking chill out. God I can't wait to ride this week.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:58 AM   #49 (permalink)
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You're missing my point again. And then you'll miss mine... and then we'll just do the tango... then you'll buy me dinner... finally, I still won't give you the booty.

Seriously though, I was emphasizing that snowboard reviewers aren't paid. So it's unreasonable to expect them not to accept free gear for reviews (not saying you expect it, general statement here).

I bring up the purchaser bias because it very well could be a bigger bias than a hooked up reviewer.

So we fall into a hole that goes absolutely nowhere.

In the end, we should all just fucking chill out. God I can't wait to ride this week.
And you are absolutely correct, that most snowboard reviewers are not comparable to professional, paid reviewers like Consumer Report.
However, most snowboard reviewers are paid, be it with free gear, advertising on their sites/blogs, or otherwise.
They are just not paid by the consumers - and that is where the conflict of interest comes in.

[Side note: I have always thought that your Agnarchy project was as close to unbiased as it got for snowboard reviews - and I have stated that several times on this forum in the past.]

And I have no idea whether the purchaser bias is bigger or the bias that comes from being paid by the manufacturer - as I said, I do not trust either type of reviewer fully...
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:01 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Yea, 99% of the aGNARchy stuff is from demos. Other than the couple NS boards on there for review that I got to keep, I think David Z has gotten one board for free.

The rest, outside of Test Fest, is stuff we return.
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