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Old 02-27-2014, 11:41 AM   #1421 (permalink)
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Subaru Symmetrical All-Wheel Drive Test - YouTube

I like this video in regards to the AWD.
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:58 AM   #1422 (permalink)
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Subaru Symmetrical All-Wheel Drive Test - YouTube

I like this video in regards to the AWD.
I like how they turned off traction control on all other vehicles but leave it on when testing the Subaru.
the reason why the other three couldnt get on the ramp was because one of the back wheel was spining. open diff always have same amount of torque on both wheels. spinning = no torque, so the other wheel would have no torque to move. the solution is either a limited slip diff to transfer torque to the non spinning wheel or traction control to brake(create resistance), to send power to the non spinning wheel.
in situations like this, your regular 4WD will do the same thing without electronics or old school locking diffs.

Last edited by speedjason; 02-27-2014 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:09 PM   #1423 (permalink)
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I like how they turned off traction control on all other vehicles but leave it on when testing the Subaru.
the reason why the other three couldnt get on the ramp was because one of the back wheel was spining. open diff always have same amount of torque on both wheels. spinning = no torque, so the other wheel would have no torque to move. the solution is either a limited slip diff to transfer torque to the non spinning wheel or traction control to brake(create resistance), to send power to the non spinning wheel.
open differential means the power goes to the wheel that slips.

the locked differential means both sides have equal torque.

of course... you're right, though... with the traction control/vehicle stability on, it would have been using the ABS system to apply brakes to the rear driver side wheel, forcing the torque to the rear passenger side.

there is also:
2013 Subaru Outback vs. 2013 Toyota Venza All-Wheel Drive Traction Test—AMCI Testing Certified - YouTube

and the Venza has the same AWD system as the RAV4, minus the "lock mode"
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:11 PM   #1424 (permalink)
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Haha, the listings I was looking at a while back must have been wrong then
Or posted by people who didn't know the difference. I know the difference, that's why I thought it came with either. Didn't know that was impossible or unlikely.
Yeah most people don't even know what they're driving!

Generally a N/S mounted engine (i.e. crankshaft aligned parallel to the vehicle as in a pickup) will have a selectable transfer case and a 4WD system.

Generally an E/W mounted engine (i.e. typical of front wheel drive sedans, CRVs, RAV4s, Escapes, etc.) will have an output shaft off the transaxle (transmission and differential all in one) that feeds power to a rear diff, making it an AWD system.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:25 PM   #1425 (permalink)
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open differential means the power goes to the wheel that slips.

the locked differential means both sides have equal torque.

of course... you're right, though... with the traction control/vehicle stability on, it would have been using the ABS system to apply brakes to the rear driver side wheel, forcing the torque to the rear passenger side.

there is also:
2013 Subaru Outback vs. 2013 Toyota Venza All-Wheel Drive Traction Test—AMCI Testing Certified - YouTube

and the Venza has the same AWD system as the RAV4, minus the "lock mode"
normal subaru's I believe have three open diffs, pretty much like most of the AWD vehicles. Toyota's "active torque control" is just another name for traction control by braking to control torque. some AWD's have locking center. some 4WD's are FWD with a locking center transfer case. some 4WD's are RWD with locking center transfter case. nowadays, its mostly electronics to control torque on open diffs. the problem is by braking the wheels, you are wasting power so some serious off-roaders still have locking diffs.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:29 PM   #1426 (permalink)
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the solution is either a limited slip diff to transfer torque to the non spinning wheel or traction control to brake(create resistance), to send power to the non spinning wheel.
in situations like this, your regular 4WD will do the same thing without electronics or old school locking diffs.
Exactly, except that with a 4WD transfer case, both the front and rear axles are getting equal torque (that is, whichever axle is slipping will use nearly 0% of the torque from the engine, the axle with traction will be using nearly all of it)

Essentially a 4WD has the effect of a locked centre diff while an AWD may have an open or limited slip centre diff.

Also, many 4WD trucks/SUVs come with locking or LSD diffs. Our '98 4Runner has an electronically lockable rear diff, so assuming the front is an open diff, it will be a full 3WD system.

This summer my buddy and I took a couple factory Toyotas into a mountain off-roading trail. One was another '98 4Runner (5 speed SR5), and a '2002 Tundra TRD Off-road.

This was part of the route, a river bed that had been damaged by the spring floods, there were some deep ruts that left only a tire or two in contact with the ground!



We had to come up this river (literally)...



The happy beasts at the end of the road (there's a beauty waterfall to the left of the pic, we grabbed some lunch here before the drive back)



After making it back to civilization!



Anyway, the point is that for off-roading or serious winter driving (through deep snow) a 4WD system with LSDs on a truck or truck based SUV is the way to go. For everything else AWD may be fine, and in many cases 2WD is fine. Tires are the big difference!

edit: Wish I had pics of the hairy shit we were going through, but we were too busy navigating through it to get pics!

Last edited by poutanen; 02-27-2014 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:31 PM   #1427 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by poutanen View Post
Yeah most people don't even know what they're driving!

Generally a N/S mounted engine (i.e. crankshaft aligned parallel to the vehicle as in a pickup) will have a selectable transfer case and a 4WD system.

Generally an E/W mounted engine (i.e. typical of front wheel drive sedans, CRVs, RAV4s, Escapes, etc.) will have an output shaft off the transaxle (transmission and differential all in one) that feeds power to a rear diff, making it an AWD system.
well this has nothing really to do with what kind of configuration it has but more to do with the layout of the vehicle. generally speaking transaxle mount engine saves space where longitudinally mount engine have better weight distribution (engine close to center of vehicle).
I had a 2001 BMW 330xi AWD and its a longitudinally mount inline 6 with a transfercase(63/37 torque spit) in the middle then front diff is mounted through the oil pan. the problem of that is the drivetrain takes up a lot of space under the car. by going trans axle its much easier to fit everything.

Last edited by speedjason; 02-27-2014 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:36 PM   #1428 (permalink)
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Exactly, except that with a 4WD transfer case, both the front and rear axles are getting equal torque (that is, whichever axle is slipping will use nearly 0% of the torque from the engine, the axle with traction will be using nearly all of it)

Essentially a 4WD has the effect of a locked centre diff while an AWD may have an open or limited slip centre diff.

Also, many 4WD trucks/SUVs come with locking or LSD diffs. Our '98 4Runner has an electronically lockable rear diff, so assuming the front is an open diff, it will be a full 3WD system.

This summer my buddy and I took a couple factory Toyotas into a mountain off-roading trail. One was another '98 4Runner (5 speed SR5), and a '2002 Tundra TRD Off-road.

This was part of the route, a river bed that had been damaged by the spring floods, there were some deep ruts that left only a tire or two in contact with the ground!



We had to come up this river (literally)...



The happy beasts at the end of the road (there's a beauty waterfall to the left of the pic, we grabbed some lunch here before the drive back)



After making it back to civilization!



Anyway, the point is that for off-roading or serious winter driving (through deep snow) a 4WD system with LSDs on a truck or truck based SUV is the way to go. For everything else AWD may be fine, and in many cases 2WD is fine. Tires are the big difference!

edit: Wish I had pics of the hairy shit we were going through, but we were too busy navigating through it to get pics!
yes the idea of locking transfer case is to eliminate the drawback of when front wheels and rear wheels have big grip difference. theatrically they can still send power to the non slipping wheels by braking the slipping wheels together but braking causes resistance. this is why locking center is a better solution. I have an FJ Cruiser and I love it a lot.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:00 PM   #1429 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by speedjason View Post
yes the idea of locking transfer case is to eliminate the drawback of when front wheels and rear wheels have big grip difference. theatrically they can still send power to the non slipping wheels by braking the slipping wheels together but braking causes resistance. this is why locking center is a better solution. I have an FJ Cruiser and I love it a lot.
I've got a manual FJ. Can't go wrong with 4WD open center diff for daily driving, 4WD locked center diff for when it gets slippery, and 4WD locked center and locked rear diff for when things get really dicey. I am yet to have to winch out of anything offroad yet, but I guess I'm just not trying hard enough to get stuck .
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:25 PM   #1430 (permalink)
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I've got a manual FJ. Can't go wrong with 4WD open center diff for daily driving, 4WD locked center diff for when it gets slippery, and 4WD locked center and locked rear diff for when things get really dicey. I am yet to have to winch out of anything offroad yet, but I guess I'm just not trying hard enough to get stuck .
I bloody want an FJ bad! The 4Runner was a beast, had no idea that a stock vehicle could do what that thing did. I know guys do way more than I did, but this thing was a beast! My buddy destroyed his engine driving the Tundra through a pond with a cold air intake low in the engine bay (duh), and I towed him out of the bush. I towed him through terrain that I didn't think the 4Runner could simply drive through before trying!

Good thing with the FJs are the diffs. Torsen on both axles I believe?!? THAT truck is actually a 4WD, you only need one wheel with traction to be able to move...

Trouble is I just want one as a toy (I've got a company vehicle as a daily) and I can't justify spending $10k on a toy at this point.
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