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Is Burton really the "top dog" anymore?

9K views 96 replies 37 participants last post by  Justin 
#1 ·
So this last Saturday was the opening day for our hill. During our rest stops (or when I had to stop and wait for my much slower friends) I would take a look around and check out what everybody was riding/wearing this year. I kept kind of a mental note and came up with some pretty interesting results.

It seems like all I ever hear is everybody hates Burton because they are the "top dog" of the snowboarding scene. Well from what I saw on the hill it doesen't seem that way. I would say at least 30-40% of the hill was riding K2/Ride boards. I also saw a bunch of Never Summer boards. Other companies that had good showings were Forum and Lib Tech. Even Rome had more boards then Burton. I only saw just a handfull of people on Burton boards.

As for the jackets/pants of what people were wearing, Burton severely lacked in that department too. I saw a ton of 686 and Sessions. Northface had a good showing also. Once again I only saw a handfull of people sporting Burton gear.

So with all this being said I don't see how Burton can be the top dog anymore. If I was a newbie snowboarder and just looking around I would think that Burton is one of the least popular brands. If anything it looks like K2/Ride is taking over the scene.

Is it that people have wised up to Burton? Are people no longer going to pay ridiculas prices for equipment when they can go with a different company and get just as good of equipment for a fracton of the price?

The next time you are on your hill take a look around and keep a mental note of what you see. I am wondering if it is like this everywhere? And if so, I don't understand how Burton can still be the "top dog"...


Comments on what you think....
 
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#56 ·
Well I was back out on the hill yesterday and took another look. I noticed more of a Burton presence but not by much. It also seemed like a good majority people that had Burton boards were kids (16 years old and younger). So I can only assume it was a mommy and daddy decision to buy Burton. As for outerwear there was also a slight increase but it was a 50/50 split with adults and kids sporting the gear. There was still a ton of sessions gear and K2/Ride still dominated the board scene.

I think I'll take another look around after christmas and see how things change. I'm sure I'll see a lot more Skate Bananas. :laugh:
 
#65 ·
I really don't care either. It's not going to affect what I ride or what I think of people just because they may be on Burton board. If someone has skills and can shred a Burton board then more power to them. This is not a bash on Burton.

I just thought it was an interesting observation worth discussing because of the contradiction between people claiming Burton to be "top dog" and actual observations. Afterall, this is a forum where we discuss questions. Granted I haven't been on this forum for very long and I appologize if this topic is beating a dead horse. But honestly, if you can't contribute to the thread topic constructively then "who cares what you post, it doesn't concern me".
 
#60 ·
Not a fan boy by any strench of the imagination my quiver is very diverse. Let's be realistic here, Burton has some of the best tech out, I have had ridden a ton of boards and my quiver is quite thick and nothing tops the EST set up. Yeah so they were smart investors and wanted to make their product better by buying out a company that has their tech. WELCOME TO BIG BUSINESS AMERICA FOLKS! At the end of the day Burton has done nothing but force other manufactures to produce superior quality, whose complaining about that.

By the way if anyone is looking for a new board I just picked up a 2010 Forum Helm PHENOMINAL! :p
 
#69 ·
^^^ seconded. I have ridden my hero about 50 times since i bought it possibly more.. and except for some cosmetic shit.. it has held up incredibly well.

Here's another thing.. with the Burton hate.. NS isn't much better when it comes to price (i.e. the "you're paying for the name with burton" argument). So is it ok for NS to do it, and burton not just because it is burton?

I do think NS' boards are a bit non-competitive when it comes to price/feature set...
 
#74 ·
Here's another thing.. with the Burton hate.. NS isn't much better when it comes to price (i.e. the "you're paying for the name with burton" argument). So is it ok for NS to do it, and burton not just because it is burton?

I do think NS' boards are a bit non-competitive when it comes to price/feature set...
NS boards are factory made in the USA. You pay extra for that. Whether that price premium is worth it, is of course, a subjective and individual valuation.

NS boards also have the best warranty term in the business. You pay extra for that, too. Of course it's a valid criticism (just like buying new cars) to say that it's stupid to pay extra for a warranty that 99%+ of the time you'll never need, but again, that's a personal value judgment.
 
#70 ·
Love these sweeping generalizations about brands like Burton from people who have only ridden a model or two from who knows which tier of boards they offer.

My '07 Burton TWC is still riding like a champ with well over 200 days. This is on crappy East Coast ice and man made crud too.

Same with my '08 Burton boots, gloves, and outerwear. Hell, even my Burton beanies have yet to shrink after who knows how many washes and drier cycles. And I wear them off the mountain as well.
 
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#71 ·
I think K2 and Ride could give them a serious run for their money. No one likes a company that 'cleans up' in the lead marketing stakes. Personally, I would give my business to smaller, more local companies in the current financial climate who need the revenue.
Another generalization. :)

By the way, how do you know who needs revenue and who doesn't? There are owners like those at NeverSummer that really don't try to become top dog. So it might seem like they are struggling for revenue when in reality they aren't. Some of these small niche companies are 100% content with their market share.

Sort of like this:

I would be completely content with 10 million dollars. My friend might not want to stop at 10 mil and aim to increase his wealth.

Remember, companies like NeverSummer don't just build snowboards. They use their factories to build other products for other vendors. NeverSummer makes skis for other brands. I wouldn't be surprised if companies like them make things like skateboard decks, surf boards, or other similar (in production process) equipment.
 
#72 ·
NS is also a skateboard brand.

I will criticize Burton on one thing.. their low end outerwear is overpriced and well... cheap. But overall their boards are quality. This year I'm hearing quite a few of the new boards are crappy from those who were at the stratton demo last year.

This "you pay for the name" shit is what really burns me up about the burton hate, because there are quite a few other board companies doing the same thing and getting no flak for it at all.
 
#73 ·
Yea, NS makes sick longboards. We carry them.

I found that the 2011 Burton board line is hit and miss. Some people hate it while others love it. There are very few in between people.

It's their whole Flying V camber thing that they are pushing. Lot of stuff going on with it and it takes people out of their comfort zone. I immediately felt something different about that rocker design when I started skating to the lift line. I quite liked it.

Then you have Custom lovers that are angry at Burton for replacing the awesome V-Rocker for the "odd" feeling Flying-V.
 
#75 ·
Yep, but i always thought building in stuff like better warranty terms into a product's price is not an excuse to charge more. But a lot of manufacturers will do it. As for being made in the USA, that is a plus, but everything made in America is not automatically better.

Like you said, its up to the individual
 
#76 ·
Yep, but i always thought building in stuff like better warranty terms into a product's price is not an excuse to charge more. But a lot of manufacturers will do it.
Right - essentially when this is your business model, your profit center is selling warranties that nobody will ever need and few people would be willing to pay for a la carte. This isn't a knock against NS specifically, since many, many, many manufacturers in all walks of life do the exact same thing. Almost every manufacturer produces very high quality products with very low failure/defect rates like 1% or fewer.

The best example is the automotive industry where very large portion of a new vehicle's price is just the manufacturer warranty which they use to subsidize the rest of their costs.

That's why you can get a 4-year old BMW with low miles on it for $25K which will still run like a champ for years to come, but the same vehicle brand new will cost $45-50k. Subtracting the actual use value over a few years, you're paying $10-15k for a warranty that almost nobody will ever need to use and even when it is used, will only on average require a few thousand dollars worth of work.

As for being made in the USA, that is a plus, but everything made in America is not automatically better.

Like you said, its up to the individual
Right - not necessarily better, but generally operating costs and labor costs in the USA are higher which means that the MSRP is going to be higher (generally speaking) to account for these.
 
#77 ·
Why is this thread still going? Christ!

People don't like burton for many of reasons. People like burton for many reasons (appearently)

IMHO I'd rather support the smaller dudes in the industry. Not one who has 60% of the industry ( if b.a.'s correct) If I understood that correctly aswell.

It's funny the only people defending them are the people who bought into them. But I digress.

Side note. The edges on my seven are the smallest thinnest look like wire thin edges of ALL my boards. Including a CRAPPY Sims from sport check
 
#78 ·
Why is this thread still going? Christ!

People don't like burton for many of reasons. People like burton for many reasons (appearently)

IMHO I'd rather support the smaller dudes in the industry. Not one who has 60% of the industry ( if b.a.'s correct) If I understood that correctly aswell.

It's funny the only people defending them are the people who bought into them. But I digress.

Side note. The edges on my seven are the smallest thinnest look like wire thin edges of ALL my boards. Including a CRAPPY Sims from sport check
Who else is supposed to defend them? :laugh:

Same could be said about the haters. Look how many hate them who A) Haven't ever ridden a Burton B) Have only ridden a couple of models and not even the better quality ones.

No argument about pricing though. It's not that I think Burton is the best company. It's just that people blow things out of proportion when dissing them. They have gear for every single level of rider. There is bound to be overpriced crap in the mixup. And this is only when taking current year pricing into consideration. The pricing argument falls apart after they go on previous year sale.

I'm equally a huge fan of Lib Tech, K2, Rome, Flow, and Ride. My new board is a K2 TD, my next bindings are Romes, I want a T.Rice, and I still love my Flow bindings. Being blind to brands is fun.

When I start balling, I'm going to buy a NeverSummer and slap on a pair of Burton bindings on it just to spite all the haters :laugh:
 
#79 ·
There's companies I'd defend without riding them. Because I like the way their company is or how they do it.

I've never rode a smokin but I like the way their doing them. Making thier own boards not giving as fuck is dope.

So even though I dont have a smokin I'd deff stand up for what there doing.

That's what i'm saying. Who here doesn't ride a BURTON yet applaud their ways.

I'm not talking products and how htey stack up(quality wise), but companies and how they do there shit.
 
#82 ·
A lot of burton Rental boards lol? Going up the lift above the newbie area everyone on their ass you can get a good metric seeing everyones bottom sheets and a lot are rental boards...

Besides that its really hard to tell, only certain boards really stick out to me when im standing in line. Board's like Arbor are easy to spot in a crowd for example.
 
#83 ·
That is to be expected on the bunny hill. I sat under the top of the main lift and was able to get a good look at the base of everyones board. I could tell what the rental boards were because they were all Rossignol and all the same model. Even with all the rentals, K2 and Ride still outnumbered everybody. I guess nobody likes Burton in NM. :laugh:
 
#84 ·
The only other NS board I've seen at my mountain is ridden by some kid who has mad park skills, Dash Kamp. I see LOTS of K2 and Burton on the "average" boarder people. Most of the teenager/park rats have Libtech, Capita, Rome, Stepchild, Ride's etc..
 
#85 ·
A lot of my friends, and their parents think that Burton has some kind of monopoly on snowboarding, which totally isn't true, but burton does a good job at advertising, and pretty much all rental boards are burtons. it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is taking away from the companies that may have a product better suited towards a particular rider, but the rider doesn't know about that company because all they know is Burton.

first real post woo.
 
#87 ·
I think it's funny how quickly hating on burton became the cool thing to do. I get it though, it's been so popular that it's created this wave of self-proclaimed revolutionaries who think they are hella steezy y0 because they are one of the ones who don't ride a burton. Then this entire anti-burton agenda was formed and now there are multiple reasons people give; their quality is slipping, they want to stick it to the man, or whatever. Whatever the case may be, I put any agendas aside and went with gear that I liked best. I've followed demo days around the Northeast several seasons in a row. I've tried a lot of different boards from a lot of different manufactures, and I chose a burton that I'm 100% happy with. Somehow though, I get associated with being a noob and a follower, but the kid who has never tried a single board in his life, but get's a rome for christmas because his friend says "omg d00d u gotta get dis rome board cuz it is teh epic win!!!1!!11" is hella cool.

But now the real funny thing is the same thing that happened to burton is happening to rome. More and more people are buying rome stuff, as it's become one of, if not the, cool brand to go with. Rome gear will be all over the place, just he way burton is and has been. Eventually more and more noobs will blindly gravitate towards Rome, and the hate will start to form. Burton stuff will become increasingly rare, then I will be cool again!

 
#88 ·
I own almost nothing burton and am not a seasoned snowboarder but i do work in the business world (most ppl do) and i think burton does a great job as a company. They advertise well and are very smart by getting ppl to use their boards as rentals and having kids programs. Some ppl say that they don't like there business practices?!? LOL you don't like things to be successful? I guess you better not use any microsoft programs and get rid of ur xbox. Stop hating ppl and companies for working at being a good business... its kinda what they are supposed to do. Companies that "make there own boards and don't give a fuck" won't be around very long. If your small company has been around for a while then they do give a fuck and ur to dumb to figuire it out. No one is making boards for free or at a loss, not on purpose anyway and not for long.
money, money... MONEY
 
#90 ·
true, but you can ideas and devices, some of those will be used by ppl to have fun. You could always make ur own snowboards if snowboarding is the only fun thing. You just can't sell it to make money. lol you could always become a failed company and give snowboards away. Or if ur that biter just switch to skis :eek:
 
#92 ·
That's odd, because everyone I've talked to that has had to call rider services has had good experiences with them. Case in point a buddy of mine had his spring break in his ratchet (Missions), they not only replaced it they offered to replace the ladders as well if they were looking worn. Was standing right there next to him in the shop when he made the call. All they wanted was his address, name, phone and binding model and he was off the phone with the new ratchet coming his way. Sounds like they gave a fuck since he didn't ask or say anything about the ladders when he called either. :dunno:
 
#93 ·
Yeah I broke a base plate on 07 missions and they sent me O-ten's missions. Didn't even take them long to ship, so I only lost about a week of the season. But the simple fact that they broke in the first place was enough to turn me off from Burton. But I sill use the same bindings and I use Moto boots (that packed out in one season and now feel like junk) until my broke ass can afford some quality gear.
 
#95 · (Edited)
You are right, Burton follows a winning business model that rakes in lots of profits and happy shareholders. But you know what people are starting to realize? Unregulated Capitalism has failed them, turning the land of opportunity into the land of the %5 who own the land of opportunity.

People like smaller companies because it represents a business model and a time when there were no multinational corporations who outsource a huge percentage of their jobs to China and India because it will increase their profits.

I read an article recently about how we percieve how well we are off compared to our parents,(think 1920's-1970's), and what it reveals is that we have traded our job market, job security, health benefits, pensions, retirement, and a high-pay relative to economy for a bunch of cheap consumerism crap made in China via Walmart.

Small businesses cannot even be competitive anymore, because ultimately corporations have perfected the cheapest possible ways of manufacturing consumerism items. With the huge capital and shareholder cashflow these corporation get, it allows them to produce items at probably half the cost of a legit fully American based company.

But you know who is to blame? We, the consumers are to blame because we got lazy and decided above all things we really needed all this cheap consumerism crap, this electricity, this huge gas guzzling SUV and this water starving lawn.

Businesses merely supply to a clientèle wants. Apparently we want to have a lower quality of life so we can lug around a bunch of shit...


From a Capitalistic business perspective Burton really only deserves praise. I just merely think the type of business model Burton is starting to use is a culprit for many of our problems.
 
#97 ·
You are right the consumer is to blame. And burton will never cause a major problem for your country. The government will most definitely let burton go bankrupt if they fail. The USA's world economic status will not be effected if burton fails unlike the banking system.

Outsourcing = good. Similar quaility, lower cost for the consumer, more profit. If you force all produciton to stay in your country you provide jobs for an extra 600 ppl and some spin off industry and then screw over the rest of the country cuase a pair of nikes cost $500 and then you can't afford to snowboard anymore cause you gotta buy shoes. Ship the low skilled low paying jobs out and replace them with higher education/higher tech/higher paying jobs. There will always be a small market for the NS, just will be hard for them to become big, they have to focus on the highest quailty gear and can't get caught up into becoming a high production company.
 
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