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Old 04-28-2011, 11:06 AM   #111 (permalink)
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JeffreyCH, it's not that I disagree with you, but I guess this is my issue:

I feel like all I ever hear in reference to our government is bitching - bitching about wasted money, or not enough money, or impeding on our rights, or how we aren't doing enough to stop terrorism, or about how the government is wasteful, or how it is too stingey, or how we're taxed too much, or how we can't afford to fix roads, keep athletic departments open in schools, etc. Everyone is bitching about every thing, and every topic has it's converse angle that's also being bitched about, and the truth is, not a goddam thing is being done about any of it but more noise pollution and more bitching.. so, when a law like this comes up, which is clearly unnecessary but, in relation to the seemingly neverending stream of nonsensical spending and stupid laws, is actually a fairly GOOD idea and really isn't that much of a drain on our economy, I don't see the point in complaining about it.
This law doesn't infringe on your rights as an adult citizen, it doesn't change your day to day life, and if we estimate that it would cost 100k to implement a law like this (i think less, but whatever), that comes to roughly 0.00028571428571428573 dollars per person in this country, or 2 one hundredths of a cent? I really don't think that's a major drain on our economy. I easily waste a penny a day .
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:44 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Wow read two pages and had enough. Im sure all the rest are the same.

Big deal. If minors are forced to wear helmets what are you going to do about it? Oh thats right. Nothing. Also who cares if someone thinks they are cool or not? I dont see dirtbike riders not wearing helmets. I dont see nascar or formula 1 drivers not wearing helmets. Shit even pro snowboarders wear helmets at competitions. If it wasnt a good idea then people wouldnt wear helmets.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:05 PM   #113 (permalink)
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On a related note, I find it very interesting to see Kevin Pearce fiercely defending this law on Twitter.
Kevin Pearce is a douche bag. Fuck him what has he done for me or snowboarding? Nothing yet everyone is all I ride for Kevin because he smashed his face on the lip of an icy pipe. Hmm where was he when I blew my spleen apart was he all I ride for angry? Fuck no the media over sensationalized another pipe jock rider that is about as cookie cutter as they come. Yeah it sucks he got brain damage but you know what shit happens now he's the poster child using the over sensationalized clout the media has given him to be the spokesperson for safety in snowboarding.

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... and phone tapping is an entirely different matter. I for one do say it's alright so long as it's working.

Terrorist threat averted > big brother listening to my phone sex convos

If you're going to rob me of my privacy, do it for a reason like this.
Thinking like this is why I had to have two senators, a congressmen, and numerous other people help me get a passport. My parents give me an arabic sounding name and suddenly I'm a terrorist. Without fail when I fly typically 4 to 5 times a year I have to go through extra screening. The terrorists have won because we have phone taps now. But that's another story. Lets all just give up all liberties.

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First of all, the cell phone tapping is entirely different - and for what it's worth, if tapping my cellphone would've stopped 9/11, then yes, tap my cell phone. Whatever I'm trying to hide isn't as important as saving people's lives.

And in regards to how to police this - it's very simple. You normally have someone stationed at the tops and bottoms of lifts right? Well, if someone gets off the lift and takes their helmet off, the operator at the top of the lift could easily radio down to the person at the bottom of the lift. When that rider gets down there, the lower lift operator can ask them to see ID if they're of questionable age, or otherwise tell them they can't get onto the lift until they've got a helmet on. It's pretty damn simple. Resorts would be able to enforce the rule pretty easily, and would need to since it's not just policy but law. If a minor was to get hurt on resort property without a helmet on, it could end up negatively for the resort.
As others have stated this isn't going to work. On top of the fact I constantly have people question my age when I ride. I don't deal well with minimum wage snow carnies getting in my face about shit. I have a pass it scans that's enough. It's me on there I don't need them asking me my birthday, to show them that it's me on my pass, etc. etc. And yes at nearly 30 I have been id'd for pg 13 movies both at the theater and in stores.

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This does seem like a stupid law. I think when resorts require kids to wear helmets for lessons or require their instructors to wear them, it is a more positive way to promote them. This law came about because a doctor's daughter died in an accident in 1988 and he has been trying to pass it in NJ for years:

“When Nicole went on the school trip as a novice skier, we thought she would be throwing snowballs and playing in the snow in a very safe place. We had no idea how dangerous the sport is until we went down and saw the place where she had the accident.”
Nicole was skiing on a beginner slope with two classmates, when they accidentally wandered onto a more advanced slope made bumpy by snow moguls, her father recounted. The three slipped and fell. As Nicole started to get up from behind a mogul, she was struck in the head by the skis of an airborne skier.

“She immediately fell and was unconscious, indicating the severity of her injury,” San Agustin said. An ambulance took Nicole to a small hospital in Rockland County, N.Y., which didn’t have the surgical staff or diagnostic equipment to deal with her brain injury, San Agustin said. She died three days later."

“One of the things my wife and I believe in is that things happen for a reason,” San Agustin said. “When this bill becomes law, what it will mean to us is that Nikki would not have died in vain. If this law saves one life and prevents a family from experiencing what we have gone through over the years, them again she would not have died in vain.”

Earlier the law held ski area's responsible for injuries to minors without helmets. That version did not pass. This one did has

".... new language that relieves resorts of liability. Under the law, the burden of enforcement will be on police, not resort personnel. The parents or guardian of youths who fail to wear helmets will be fined $25 for the first violation and $100 for subsequent infractions."

I cannot imagine the police at lifts or on the mountain finding the parents and handing out fines. I think this just passed to satisfy the family.
You're right that this law is just to make a bunch of butt hurt parents happy.

1988 to now a lots changed with how injuries are treated. Protocols at resorts have changed a shit ton as well. Shit sucks your kid died but don't force your loss on me I don't give a fuck.

People need to look at this helmets save lives so now the law says we have to wear them. OK most common injury in snowboarding is broken wrists next we'll have a law for mandatory wrist guards, then elbow pads, then knee pads, finally full compression suits. Where does it end thats the issue? I'm not debating that this stuff saves/protects us except wrist guards those do more damage than good snowboarding. But I am saying why does it have to be a legal issue that our police have to enforce and not something that resorts can say helmet mandatory for this terrain park, or park video required to ride this park, etc. etc. The money thats going into this could be better used on an educational initiative.

Jeff makes another valid point as a patroller he's now got another job added to his list of more important tasks. I'm probably the only person here that's laid face down in the snow bleeding to death internally without a patroller around to check on me and almost died at the resort. I got lucky that someone saw I was fucked and got ski patrol, but the fact is with them not on the hill to administer first aid and do their tasks because they're dealing with something as bullshit as this someone could die? Who gets blamed? Patrol and that's fucking bullshit.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:13 PM   #114 (permalink)
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As others have stated this isn't going to work. On top of the fact I constantly have people question my age when I ride. I don't deal well with minimum wage snow carnies getting in my face about shit. I have a pass it scans that's enough. It's me on there I don't need them asking me my birthday, to show them that it's me on my pass, etc. etc. And yes at nearly 30 I have been id'd for pg 13 movies both at the theater and in stores.


Jeff makes another valid point as a patroller he's now got another job added to his list of more important tasks. I'm probably the only person here that's laid face down in the snow bleeding to death internally without a patroller around to check on me and almost died at the resort. I got lucky that someone saw I was fucked and got ski patrol, but the fact is with them not on the hill to administer first aid and do their tasks because they're dealing with something as bullshit as this someone could die? Who gets blamed? Patrol and that's fucking bullshit.
So you don't like my alternative simply because it'll inconvenience you in an incredibly small, nitpicky way? Like someone else said, it'd be as easy as a resort issuing a pass that designates that they're a minor.

And what happened to you sucks, for sure...but it was also just posted that the burden of upholding this law wouldn't fall on the shoulder of the ski patrol, it would fall on the shoulders of the police. This wouldn't require more than 2 seconds from ski patrol either..its as simple as "put your helmet on" and if they don't, then it's "let me see your pass." the end, game over.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:18 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BurtonAvenger View Post
Thinking like this is why I had to have two senators, a congressmen, and numerous other people help me get a passport. My parents give me an arabic sounding name and suddenly I'm a terrorist. Without fail when I fly typically 4 to 5 times a year I have to go through extra screening. The terrorists have won because we have phone taps now. But that's another story. Lets all just give up all liberties.
And everyone automatically assumes I'm good at math and Leo isn't my real name (I'm omitting the more offensive stuff)... but point taken lol. So what you're saying is it isn't working which I have no argument against. The second we do hear an attack being prevented due to phone tapping, would it then make your situation worth it?

I guess it's all subjective.

But I do agree it's an invasion of my privacy as I said. Honestly, call me a sheep or whatever... I just don't care. It's not ruining my day and there is nothing I can do about any of this. If people find a way to get some changes in motion that I can realistically contribute to, then I'm all game.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:20 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BurtonAvenger View Post
Jeff makes another valid point as a patroller he's now got another job added to his list of more important tasks. I'm probably the only person here that's laid face down in the snow bleeding to death internally without a patroller around to check on me and almost died at the resort. I got lucky that someone saw I was fucked and got ski patrol, but the fact is with them not on the hill to administer first aid and do their tasks because they're dealing with something as bullshit as this someone could die? Who gets blamed? Patrol and that's fucking bullshit.
Brilliant point. The seen vs. the unseen a little Frederic Bastiat for ya! It's easy to say "Well my kid wouldn't have got broke with a helmet" just like it's easy to say "A seatbelt saves lives" even though - in certain types of collisions - seatbelts increase the risk of serious injury or death (in certain circumstances, you have better likelihood of surviving if you get ejected).

It's harder to identify the hidden costs like these and even more difficult to put a number on them.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:25 PM   #117 (permalink)
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I don't think the issue is an "inconvenience" to Jeff and the other patrollers. The problem is that it's distracting them and taking them away from their primary objective as first responders, and turning them in to hall monitors on skis.

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Sit would fall on the shoulders of the police. This wouldn't require more than 2 seconds from ski patrol either..its as simple as "put your helmet on" and if they don't, then it's "let me see your pass." the end, game over.
Do you really think that the state of NJ is going to hire additional police officers to patrol the slopes?

If not, then the burden is going to fall on the ski patrol, the lifties, the resort management, etc.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:32 PM   #118 (permalink)
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So you don't like my alternative simply because it'll inconvenience you in an incredibly small, nitpicky way? Like someone else said, it'd be as easy as a resort issuing a pass that designates that they're a minor.

And what happened to you sucks, for sure...but it was also just posted that the burden of upholding this law wouldn't fall on the shoulder of the ski patrol, it would fall on the shoulders of the police. This wouldn't require more than 2 seconds from ski patrol either..its as simple as "put your helmet on" and if they don't, then it's "let me see your pass." the end, game over.
Your logic is so flawed on this I could argue it to death. Minor passes do exist but you still see power tripping snow carnies going above and beyond. Signage, stewards of the community, and the fact we're just better educated make this law null and void. Leave the decisions up to the people not the police.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:35 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Brilliant point. The seen vs. the unseen a little Frederic Bastiat for ya! It's easy to say "Well my kid wouldn't have got broke with a helmet" just like it's easy to say "A seatbelt saves lives" even though - in certain types of collisions - seatbelts increase the risk of serious injury or death (in certain circumstances, you have better likelihood of surviving if you get ejected).

It's harder to identify the hidden costs like these and even more difficult to put a number on them.
Wouldn't the seatbelt be the lesser of two evils scenario? All stats that I've seen show seatbelts saves more lives than it takes.

Also, how many seatbelt related deaths are from improper usage? What's the seatbelt injury vs potential injury if they didn't have one on?

I can see how being ejected in certain situations could be the better option, but that's highly dependent on multiple factors. The speed and severity of the crash and things like how they were ejected (head first through windshield, out of the side of an open window, etc...). Was the person sleeping or intoxicated? Studies have shown relaxed bodies take less damage and this is why you consistently see drunk drivers surviving bad crashes. They aren't tensed up.

I actually enjoy this thread. Lots of good info is coming out of it
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:39 PM   #120 (permalink)
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I don't think the issue is an "inconvenience" to Jeff and the other patrollers. The problem is that it's distracting them and taking them away from their primary objective as first responders, and turning them in to hall monitors on skis.



Do you really think that the state of NJ is going to hire additional police officers to patrol the slopes?

If not, then the burden is going to fall on the ski patrol, the lifties, the resort management, etc.
well, since we're already being wasteful, what's hiring a few more cops cost? lol
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Your logic is so flawed on this I could argue it to death. Minor passes do exist but you still see power tripping snow carnies going above and beyond. Signage, stewards of the community, and the fact we're just better educated make this law null and void. Leave the decisions up to the people not the police.
Meh,there's no accounting for someone else on a power trip. Just because some jerkoff thinks a STAFF jacket makes him kind doesn't completely nullify whether or not it would be a viable option. If everyone is so much better educated, then why arent they already wearing helmets?

Im just playing devils advocate here since a.im 25 and i wear a helmet, this law doesnt apply to me and b.i think this issue has been blown way out of proportion
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