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Helmet Nazi's and so it begins

21K views 153 replies 37 participants last post by  chomps1211 
#1 ·
#82 ·
I thought the number of snowboarders is rising? At any rate, it's not just fatalities I want to know about. Head related injuries.

And eh, I have been taking less risks since my helmet use. But I'm one of those guys that was hell bent on finding one after an injury. The injury is what is keeping my risk taking down lol.

I think I'm back to normal after this season though. I can't wait until next season to try more stuff again. Soooo looking forward to more Crystal mountain runs. We're also likely doing our trip to Colorado.

It's still dumping there. Lucky ass Coloradians.
 
#83 ·
I thought the number of snowboarders is rising? At any rate, it's not just fatalities I want to know about. Head related injuries.
Snowboarders were rising, skiers declining. Total number of participant-days is flat over 30 years or so.

Serious injuries (paralysis, serious head, and other serious injuries) occur at the rate of about 43 per year, according to the NSAA. In the 2009/10 season, there were 39 serious injuries. Sixteen of these serious injuries were skiers (11 male, 5 female) and 23 were snowboarders, (16 male, 7 female). Among the serious injuries, 18 of those involved were reported as wearing a helmet at the time of the incident. The rate of serious injury in 2009/10 was .65 per million skier/snowboarder visits...

[R]ecent research has shown that the use of helmet reduces the incidence of any head injury by 30 to 50 percent, but that the decrease in head injuries is generally limited to the less serious injuries such as scalp lacerations, mild concussions (Grade I) and contusions to the head, as opposed to more serious injuries such as concussions greater than Grade II, skull fractures, closed head injuries and the like. There has been no significant reduction in fatalities over the past nine seasons​


I think I'm back to normal after this season though. I can't wait until next season to try more stuff again. Soooo looking forward to more Crystal mountain runs.
I got my season pass for Crystal. $219. Solid.
 
#84 ·
All I'm going to say in regards to your statistics is this:

1. if the law stops even one kid from having a serious or fatal head injury, it's worth it
2. just because "only" 40 people per year are injured doesn't mean that that's entirely accurate - many people may have injuries they don't report (ie. concussions where they are not treated, like mine)
3. i played competitive paintball for years - super serious, super hardcore. and i believe there are less injuries in paintball than even in bowling. Guess what? We still wear protective gear, including goggles/face protection, knee pads, elbow pads, etc.

I just think this whole thing has been way overblown. Sure, there's tons of bigger issues the government could be spending money on..however, this is a state government law, not a federal law, so if you aren't in the state that demands it, it has little to no bearing on you. In addition, there are a MILLION wasteful ways the government spends money... I can think of a lot that are way stupider and unnecessary than insisting that minors wear helmets while snowboarding.
 
#95 · (Edited)
1. if the law stops even one kid from having a serious or fatal head injury, it's worth it
If one terrorist attack is averted by tapping everyone's phone then it's worth it :rolleyes:

I just think this whole thing has been way overblown. Sure, there's tons of bigger issues the government could be spending money on..however, this is a state government law, not a federal law, so if you aren't in the state that demands it, it has little to no bearing on you. In addition, there are a MILLION wasteful ways the government spends money... I can think of a lot that are way stupider and unnecessary than insisting that minors wear helmets while snowboarding.
The thing you are failing to realize in most of your posts is that it does affect everyone. Something that has to be considered is that each state has a certain budget, when it falls short they have to apply for federal money to make up for it. There is not only the time and money wasted by passing this law. There is enforcement of the law, The collection of the fines, the processing of each court case, and a ton of paperwork behind it all. Have you ever had a speeding ticket? Sure no big deal to you, minor inconvenience, you go home, write a check for the fine and mail it, done for you. On the other side of that, the officer has to write a report, store the video file(dash cam) and log it into evidence. Then there is a court date set, a case file generated, a clerk that has to rubber stamp the resolution of said case once it's paid. Now say you forget to pay the fine, a warrant is issued that has to be signed by a judge, executed by a police officer, and a bed in a cell that has to be open to accommodate you when you are arrested on said warrant. I know this law is just one example of a frivolous waste of law enforcement and court resources, however if you add them all up it is a considerable drain on the whole economy.

While I agree that children should wear helmets, how are they going to enforce this law? Station a police officer at each resort? Have ski patrol detain the offender until a cop can come issue a citation? The first option is a horrible waste of manpower. Not to mention, do you really want a real cop stationed at your hill? If you walk by a (ski) patrol reeking of kind bud, none of us care, if you walk by a real cop reeking of bud...well you get it. The second is a waste of safety personal time. If I'm babysitting little Billy and his parents until a cop can get there, guess what, I'm not on the hill doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Which is keeping you safe, issuing first aid, and dragging you down the hill if you break yourself. So my time is better spent babysitting some brat rather then splinting your broken leg?

To me it's a matter of resorts being so far released from liability that the insurance companies don't put any pressure on them to make this a policy. Think about mandatory drug testing for employment. If a company doesn't have a drug testing policy then their insurance goes up. To me (and others) this should be a resort policy, simple enough, if a kid is getting on the lift with out a helmet, guess what, they don't get on, and/or have their pass jerked. How many times do you think it would take of little Billy calling his parents to come back and pick him up would it take before they bought him a helmet? My guess would be about once. Or in order to even purchase a lift ticket for a minor you would have to show that said minor has a helmet, issue a different color pass to minors so the lifties know exactly who has to have a helmet to get on the lift.
 
#85 ·
Although as empathizing humans, we abhor the idea of putting a price tag on a human life, we need to be honest with ourselves and everyone else and admit that there are prices which would be too high. And I think that's what people are saying: you can't just keep piling on taxes on top of taxes eventually people have had enough.

Everything in life is about tradeoffs. If you want to add helmet laws, then you've gotta be willing to give up one of the other frivolous government expenses (and I'll totally concede that for every real problem that the government doesn't spend money on, there is probably a frivolous issue on which they do spend money) but even if you do that, I still submit that there are more pressing concerns that need to be addressed, than some grandstanding attempt to save rich white people from their own ignorance.
 
#88 ·
Will no one think of the children? This seems to be the rally cry of people that want to bubble wrap the youth of tomorrow. Seriously the youth of tomorrow are the scariest sacks of shit I've ever had to deal with, but that's another story.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not against helmet use for kids or adults. I'm advocating that it's a choice and if the state wants to make it a law it's a waste of time and money. Now if the resort wants to make it a policy go for it that's fine. I live in Breck best park in the world hands down (anyone can try and argue that with me but it's fact) we have jumps ranging from 3 feet to almost 100. Do you need a special pass? Helmet? or training? Nope you just need a lift ticket and you can go in the park and that's that. Do people get broken in the park every year because of this? Yes, could some of it be prevented? Definitely. But at the end of the day its the persons choice to venture into Freeway and Parklane it is there choice to hit the jumps and jibs.

Now are kids a lot stupider than adults? Well some are but helmet use is a lot different than it was when I was 16. Back then I had a helmet I knew what it would do and I charged harder and got more concussions then than I do now without one yet I'm actually hitting bigger features now. My parents when I was that age never saw me hit a jump or ride the pipe, they never forced me to wear a helmet, I just decided it was a good thing to have. Some of my friends followed suit some didn't we all survived, granted a bunch of us got concussions.

Moral of the story people will get hurt, people will die, people will get maimed, but let it be their or their families decision not the governments. Just like if I wanted to go fly down mainstreet on a crotch rocker in Breck I can do it with or without a helmet in this state because it's my choice. Is my life in my hands and ability? Hell yeah and that's what it should come down to.
 
#89 ·
if someone wants to put their life at risk, let them do it, if they die well that sucks but whose fault is it? the persons.
if a kid wants to ride without a helmet let him, are we really trying to force something a trivial as a helmet?? guess they don't know it only protects your head.
really making a law will make kids wear a helmet even less cause the police wants the, to do it.
but im sure this has been said i was just to lazy to read through all these pages :laugh:
 
#94 ·
if someone wants to put their life at risk, let them do it, if they die well that sucks but whose fault is it? the persons.
if a kid wants to ride without a helmet let him
, are we really trying to force something a trivial as a helmet?? guess they don't know it only protects your head.
really making a law will make kids wear a helmet even less cause the police wants the, to do it.
but im sure this has been said i was just to lazy to read through all these pages :laugh:
Kids don't make the best judgment calls. My roof, my rules. Like I said, it would be nice to know that ski patrol would revoke my kids' passes if they disobey me and the resort's policy. That doesn't just stop at helmets, that goes for all other policies on the slopes including proper etiquette.

I'm not for this law. I like the idea of it and as Wolfie and others pointed out, there are better ways to do this without the mighty hand of the law. I don't want to sit next to a cop on skis. Although it would be fun to watch how much they get sprayed and see how they handle the situation.

I'm also fully aware that a lot of people, including adults, use helmets for the wrong reasons. And whether or not it does something subconscious to us is both debatable and impossible to prove. All I know is, I'm going to make it very clear that a helmet is not going to save them from injury altogether.

On a related note, I find it very interesting to see Kevin Pearce fiercely defending this law on Twitter.
 
#90 ·
I also disagree with this law. Most of what I believe has already been said.. so there's no need for me to re-type anything. I just think enforcing this law is a waste of time and money especially when I would guess a good 75% of people on the hill these days wear helmets on their own already.

What I am curious to know is how would they punish those caught not obiding by this law? Say its a 13 year old boy who isn't riding with his parents.. what are they going to do? detain him until they get in contact with an adult and hand out a fine? Or hand out fines to the minor themself?

anyway.. The government needs to readjust the way they spend our money and focus more on areas that will actually improve our country (or state) and it's stability. Personal safety shouldn't be on the radar when we are struggling with keeping the US on its own two feet.
 
#91 ·
The Us gov' needs to stop printing so much money, its hurting the strength of your $$$$ but thats another issue. All i know is the Aussie $ is worth $1.09 USD which means my new t rice is actually cheaper to buy in Aus than it is to buy in the US where it is made, go figure
 
#96 ·
You just used some of my ideas Jeffrey!

Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but it's AFFECT not EFFECT! RAWRASAURUS!



... and phone tapping is an entirely different matter. I for one do say it's alright so long as it's working.

Terrorist threat averted > big brother listening to my phone sex convos

If you're going to rob me of my privacy, do it for a reason like this.

Same goes for those airport body scans (as long as it actually doesn't physically harm me). You can't win either way. We get attacked, security gets blamed. We up the security, people complain about invasion of privacy.

Uh oh, did I just start another potential debate topic?
 
#97 ·
You just used some of my ideas Jeffrey!
Whoops, I was typing that in between phone calls, took about an hour to type out :laugh: so we were posting at the same time....great minds think alike :laugh::laugh:

Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but it's AFFECT not EFFECT! RAWRASAURUS!
You sir are correct, edited ;)


... and phone tapping is an entirely different matter. I for one do say it's alright so long as it's working.

Terrorist threat averted > big brother listening to my phone sex convos

If you're going to rob me of my privacy, do it for a reason like this.

Same goes for those airport body scans (as long as it actually doesn't physically harm me). You can't win either way. We get attacked, security gets blamed. We up the security, people complain about invasion of privacy.

Uh oh, did I just start another potential debate topic?
Slippery slope my friend :cheeky4:
 
#103 ·
so now, the lift operators earning $7/hour are going to be responsible for monitoring every person (and identifying potential minors from a distance) who gets off the chairlift and play snow-security? And the guy at the bottom is he going to stop the chairlift from running so he can chase down some kid and ask for ID? How will he know who to ask? What if the kid has his helmet back on by that time? What if the kid traverses and goes to a different chairlift? I do not think it is nearly as "simple" as you want it to be.

Also, on a related note: where I'm from, snowboard "leash" is also required by law. Only one of the 5 or 6 ski areas that I visit regularly makes any effort to enforce this, sure a helmet is far more prominent than a leash, but it just shows that just because something is codified as "law" doesn't mean that the resorts really will do a diligent job policing it.
 
#106 ·
so now, the lift operators earning $7/hour are going to be responsible for monitoring every person (and identifying potential minors from a distance) who gets off the chairlift and play snow-security? And the guy at the bottom is he going to stop the chairlift from running so he can chase down some kid and ask for ID? How will he know who to ask? What if the kid has his helmet back on by that time? What if the kid traverses and goes to a different chairlift? I do not think it is nearly as "simple" as you want it to be.
Pretty simple really. Every lift I've ever been on the liftie looks at or scans my pass. When you buy a lift ticket if you are under 18 you have to show ID to prove it, and have a parent sign the liability waiver. Why not have the counter person check for a helmet at that point? Simply issue different tickets for minors, or add one more check sum to the code for scanners.

Also, on a related note: where I'm from, snowboard "leash" is also required by law. Only one of the 5 or 6 ski areas that I visit regularly makes any effort to enforce this, sure a helmet is far more prominent than a leash, but it just shows that just because something is codified as "law" doesn't mean that the resorts really will do a diligent job policing it.
Yup, another idiotic law that does nothing, wasted taxpayers money, and legislators time to enact. I bet if you ask any lawyer they would tell you these aren't the only 2 laws on the books like that :D
 
#104 ·
look, you can keep coming up with reasons why this doesn't work...and maybe it won't, but really it sounds like alot of people whining and bitching about a law that has little to no effect on them whatsoever. find an issue worth complaining about and complain about it. a state making a law that makes it mandatory for kids to wear helmets really isn't worth the bitching.
 
#105 ·
Your right, it is just one of hundreds(maybe thousands) of stupid laws on the books, and more then likely only a few(10's, 100's?) million dollars has been wasted on said laws. Who cares right...what's a couple mill here or there :dunno: This one just happens to gain attention here because we are all snowboarders. I do see your point, however if we as a nation keep looking the other way on stuff like this because it doesn't directly affect us, then what? We end up with a bunch of useless laws that do nothing, can't be enforced, cost millions, and in the end what have we accomplished? Errr wait, we are already there, so trust the gov't to do what's in your best interest, spend YOUR money however they want, it'll be okay. Blind faith in our gov't is a wonderful thing, enjoy it while you can.
 
#107 ·
lol there's so much I disagree with that it doesn't even make sense to reply - we obviously have very different view points on our government and on these laws. If this law cost a million dollars to instate, I'd be shocked - now compare salaries of government employees, or money wasted on private jets or dom perignon in air force one or tax write-offs or oil kick backs or a million other things. We as a country are incredibly wasteful with our money, and day to day people generally keep their mouths shut and continue on with their daily lives. Now, because this law was put into place and it is brought to your attention simply because it pertains to the sport you;re interested in, you have a qualm about government spending? How about instead of bitching and moaning about a law meant to protect people who aren't mature enough to make a decision about protecting THEMSELVES, you bitch and moan about government bailouts, free healthcare on the backs of the american people, and the abomination that is our president now.. who is a product of YOUR votes.
 
#110 ·
I'm not exactly sure why you are on the side of the debate you are on? Fundamentally we are pretty close, if you ask me the whole government should be impeached, and a complete overhaul of the system done. So maybe this ONE law didn't cost millions, if fact I would guess maybe around 100k, I can't see anything getting done by the government for less then that. I do agree that this is a drop in the ocean of corrupt and wasteful things our government does. I'm just pointing out that all those drops make up the ocean. This just happens to be the topic of discussion, and I found a flaw in your reasoning that it doesn't matter.
 
#108 · (Edited)
Now, because this law was put into place and it is brought to your attention simply because it pertains to the sport you;re interested in, you have a qualm about government spending?"

Nah I have a qualm about pretty much everything else you listed, too. I thought I made that obvious. It is retarded to spend more money when you're already mismanaging and overbudget on the money that you do spend.

"How about instead ... you bitch and moan about government bailouts, free healthcare on the backs of the american people, and the abomination that is our president now."

I've done more than my fair share of that. And you know what people say? It's like fucking clockwork bro, as sure as the Swiss trains run on time, I get a response that rarely deviates from:

  • "It only costs a few $$$ and compared to XYZ that is practically nothing so why bother?"
  • "If it saves the life of one person then it's worth it!"
  • "It's for the greater good!"
  • "It doesn't affect you so why do you care?"
  • "'mericah fuck yeah!"
  • "It's not like you can change anything so why care?"
 
#109 ·
This does seem like a stupid law. I think when resorts require kids to wear helmets for lessons or require their instructors to wear them, it is a more positive way to promote them. This law came about because a doctor's daughter died in an accident in 1988 and he has been trying to pass it in NJ for years:

“When Nicole went on the school trip as a novice skier, we thought she would be throwing snowballs and playing in the snow in a very safe place. We had no idea how dangerous the sport is until we went down and saw the place where she had the accident.”
Nicole was skiing on a beginner slope with two classmates, when they accidentally wandered onto a more advanced slope made bumpy by snow moguls, her father recounted. The three slipped and fell. As Nicole started to get up from behind a mogul, she was struck in the head by the skis of an airborne skier.

“She immediately fell and was unconscious, indicating the severity of her injury,” San Agustin said. An ambulance took Nicole to a small hospital in Rockland County, N.Y., which didn’t have the surgical staff or diagnostic equipment to deal with her brain injury, San Agustin said. She died three days later."

“One of the things my wife and I believe in is that things happen for a reason,” San Agustin said. “When this bill becomes law, what it will mean to us is that Nikki would not have died in vain. If this law saves one life and prevents a family from experiencing what we have gone through over the years, them again she would not have died in vain.”

Earlier the law held ski area's responsible for injuries to minors without helmets. That version did not pass. This one did has

".... new language that relieves resorts of liability. Under the law, the burden of enforcement will be on police, not resort personnel. The parents or guardian of youths who fail to wear helmets will be fined $25 for the first violation and $100 for subsequent infractions."

I cannot imagine the police at lifts or on the mountain finding the parents and handing out fines. I think this just passed to satisfy the family.
 
#111 ·
JeffreyCH, it's not that I disagree with you, but I guess this is my issue:

I feel like all I ever hear in reference to our government is bitching - bitching about wasted money, or not enough money, or impeding on our rights, or how we aren't doing enough to stop terrorism, or about how the government is wasteful, or how it is too stingey, or how we're taxed too much, or how we can't afford to fix roads, keep athletic departments open in schools, etc. Everyone is bitching about every thing, and every topic has it's converse angle that's also being bitched about, and the truth is, not a goddam thing is being done about any of it but more noise pollution and more bitching.. so, when a law like this comes up, which is clearly unnecessary but, in relation to the seemingly neverending stream of nonsensical spending and stupid laws, is actually a fairly GOOD idea and really isn't that much of a drain on our economy, I don't see the point in complaining about it.
This law doesn't infringe on your rights as an adult citizen, it doesn't change your day to day life, and if we estimate that it would cost 100k to implement a law like this (i think less, but whatever), that comes to roughly 0.00028571428571428573 dollars per person in this country, or 2 one hundredths of a cent? I really don't think that's a major drain on our economy. I easily waste a penny a day .
 
#112 ·
Wow read two pages and had enough. Im sure all the rest are the same.

Big deal. If minors are forced to wear helmets what are you going to do about it? Oh thats right. Nothing. Also who cares if someone thinks they are cool or not? I dont see dirtbike riders not wearing helmets. I dont see nascar or formula 1 drivers not wearing helmets. Shit even pro snowboarders wear helmets at competitions. If it wasnt a good idea then people wouldnt wear helmets.
 
#122 ·
How long to you suppose it will be before some rich douche bags 19 y.o. kid dies and they go on a crusade? It's already okay to have a helmet law for kids, so why not adults? Next would be as B.A. said it will be wrist guards, and a bunch of other BS. I for one want the CHOICE of wearing a helmet. The main reason I wear mine is because it is warmer then a beanie lol. On those bluebird spring days cruising soft corn I don't wear it. If I crack my head, so be it, if I wanted a safe hobby I'd take up golf or bowling ;)

**Please note: the following paragraph is not directed at anyone in particular**

The fact of the matter is, people need to take responsibility for themselves and their kids. If you need the government to make a law so your kid will obey your own rules then you are to stupid to breed. The real key here (as has been said before) is education....PERIOD!! Like the idiot that crusaded for this law, he "thought" skiing was safe, and his daughter was just gonna goof off and throw a few snowballs?? REALLY?? MORON!!! What if one of those snowballs had a chunk of ice in it that put out her eye? Should snowballs be outlawed too? If they were going to make a law to reduce injuries I think it would have been better to have a mandatory safety classes, before a minor can get a pass. That right there would reduce a lot of the accidents, since they would not only learn the limitations of helmets, but also proper etiquette.
 
#123 ·
i dont disagree with many of the points on this page, i really dont. theyre all valid in their own right.

just answer me this :

is this really that big a deal? like.. should this really merit 13 pages of debate?
I would suppose itll be a very long time before some rich douchebag's 19 year old dies and there's a law that makes it mandatory for adults. As an adult himself, the dead teenager's rich dad has no recourse and no room to complain. BUT..perhaps that rich 19 year old has had to wear a helmet since he was 16 since its the law, and because of that, when he's 19, he's still wearing a helmet.and so that day when he hits his head on a rock and wouldve otherwise checked out of this world, hes still there, being some rich douchebags son.



Like I said, I think you all make valid points..I just find it hard to argue that this is really an issue worthy of your points, as complicated as you're all making it to be, and why, if we can all agree it's safer to wear helmets, that it even deserves a debate. I get the whole "we should be able to choose for ourselves and let the parents be parents" argument, but what about this : Lets say your 15 year old son and his friend are going snowboarding. You're a good parent, and you've taught your son well..he knows to wear his helmet while riding..and not to just say he will, but to actually do it. Except he goes out with his friend one day who's parents consist of a mom popping percs like tic-tacs and a dad who's always staring at the bottom of a bottle and who DON'T make him wear a helmet..they get to the mountain, and your son sees his friend not wearing his helmet..and even though he knows better, he's still a 16 year old kid who makes bad decisions sometimes, so he takes his helmet off too. The next day, your son is in a hospital bed with tubes up his nose and down his throat, machines monitoring his heartbeat and vital signs because his brain is a bowl of jello from smashing his head on a rail. Guess what? Your right to choose, and your quality parenting, are worth approximately dick now.
 
#125 ·
the precedent is that in this case, the safety of a teenagers brain is worth more than his right to choose to protect it, since by definition he is a minor who is incapable of making the smart decision to begin with.
 
#128 ·
1. By this logic, a teenager is unable to make any decision regarding his health, safety or well-being. So they shouldn't be allowed to drive at all. They also shouldn't be allowed to eat unacompanied by an adult since they aren't capable of making healthy decisions. Etc.

2. The argument implies that there is a correct decision so any adult who opts out is clearly incapable of making the smart decision to begin with. Is not the safety of an adult's brain worth more than his right to make poor decisions? Therefore, adults should also be subject to this law which will force them to make the correct decision!
 
#127 ·
it took well over 10 years for this law to pass in NJ.. you really think it'll spread with any kind of quickness anywhere else? As many people have said, this is directly in response to placating that guy about his daughter. I don't exactly envision this spreading like wildfire.
 
#134 ·


There you go.

Plain and simple, not wearing a helmet is (and should be) personal choice. This isn't like speeding a car, you're not hurting anyone but yourself by not wearing one. What's next, you have to wear long sleeves and jeans when riding a bike so you don't scrape up your arms and knees? Our so-called "government" can stay the fuck out of personal decisions.
 
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