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Old 11-19-2012, 11:45 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Clayton Bigsby View Post
Ahhhhh geez, all I wanted to do was let some of you people know of a program interviewing Jake Burton on his success/product line etc. A man who's company made $500 million last, has got to know something.

I wished that this sport would never have taken off like it has. I can remember at time if you wanted to ride BAKER, you had to prove to one of the snowboard employee's that you could turn left, turn right and stop, once you did that , then you had your picture taken and put on a separate pass that every lifty asked you for to prove that you could ride the entire mtn. Stevens Pass only let us ride weekdays and no hloidays, we once got kicked off of the mtn for riding the Friday after Thanksgiving for being "boarders". There used to be a time at BAKER when there was maybe 20 of us boarders that had a close brotherhood, encouraging each other, giving riding/gear tips, crashing at someone's house or catching a ride, now we have a bunch of "boarders" that are calling each other Fuck holes, assholes, stupid fuck, dumbshits, etc and talking shit about everyone else on the hill, but I guess that the way it is when you can hide behind your keypad.

What has happened to the sport I love, those days are long gone, but that wont stop me and my riding buddies of 27 years from ripping up that PNW powder
The simple answer for you. It got profitable and marketable.
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:14 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton Bigsby View Post
Ahhhhh geez, all I wanted to do was let some of you people know of a program interviewing Jake Burton on his success/product line etc. A man who's company made $500 million last, has got to know something.

I wished that this sport would never have taken off like it has. I can remember at time if you wanted to ride BAKER, you had to prove to one of the snowboard employee's that you could turn left, turn right and stop, once you did that , then you had your picture taken and put on a separate pass that every lifty asked you for to prove that you could ride the entire mtn. Stevens Pass only let us ride weekdays and no hloidays, we once got kicked off of the mtn for riding the Friday after Thanksgiving for being "boarders". There used to be a time at BAKER when there was maybe 20 of us boarders that had a close brotherhood, encouraging each other, giving riding/gear tips, crashing at someone's house or catching a ride, now we have a bunch of "boarders" that are calling each other Fuck holes, assholes, stupid fuck, dumbshits, etc and talking shit about everyone else on the hill, but I guess that the way it is when you can hide behind your keypad.

What has happened to the sport I love, those days are long gone, but that wont stop me and my riding buddies of 27 years from ripping up that PNW powder
It would be nice if no one else in the world enjoyed surfing and I could get literally every wave I want, but it is what it is. It feels amazing to do, so people will do it. It shouldn't be surprising that snowboarding is popular.

As for Burton as a whole, I applaud anyone who has the drive, ambition, and skill to capture and maintain such a large market share of any industry. There isn't a single business in the world that does this without having a product that people want. Period.

Burton has made some great business moves including positioning themselves to the mainstream as THE snowboard company early on, and they outlasted and outperformed every other manufacturer.

As for anyone who supposedly went out of business because of their success, who cares? Cry me a river. Business fundamentals: Put out a better product and learn to market it better and you'll survive and thrive. If not, you won't. Oh well.

While I don't ride Burton boards, I still admire Jake Burton and the company he built. The fact that he is one of the first people to convince quite a few resorts (including the largest on the East Coast) to allow snowboarders on the lifts means I think we owe him our gratitude, if nothing else.
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15 years on a retail floor? Hahahahaha, that proves my point. I'm done here.
LOL.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:39 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I think Jake would be the first one to say that, one person he owe's a ton of gratitude to is Craig Kelly (I know, Jake stole Craig from Tom Sims). I firmly feel that Craig made Burton what it is today, Jake kept him on the pay role well after he stopped competing, then used him in R&D.

RIP CK
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:16 PM   #34 (permalink)
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It's not that Burton hasn't done good things for the industry. It is the fact that Burton takes credit for everything. The whole attitude of "I invented" that simply isn't the truth, just a really well marketed spin. Snurfer, Sims and Winterstick were all making boards when Jake came out with his first board. His first board was basically the same product snurfer had already been selling for years.

A lot of people helped shape and drive our sport, Jake is only one of many. He acts like he was the only guy out there on the snow. I personally like the guy but also acknowledge that he pulled some pretty lame moves early on. In doing so he started the corruption of our sport. His business ethics are not all that they are hyped up to be. His products were stagnant for most of the history of his company and usually followed one to two years behind the trends that the real movers and shakers were making. I do applaud him for being one of the few companies to survive this long in such a fickle industry, not too many of those early brands are around anymore.

As far as thinking they are the greatest because they hold such a large market share... Walmart. Like Walmart, Burton has helped increase it's market share through manipulating distribution channels and moving American jobs to Communist countries. I don't look up to businesses that follow that model. Good for them that they are stinking rich, I hope they enjoy the success. I personally would be riddled with guilt at the shamefull actions of these companies if I owned them.


That being said of the many, many, many boards I've ridden, the 98 Custom 64 is one of my top five boards of all time. I might even put the first year of the Triumph 64 as another of those top five boards. Either that or the Blacktop, that board was friggin fun. They make a great product that is equal in quality with other top "manufacturers" and have a product line vast enough to reach every customer base. (Are you really a manufacturer if you pay a factory overseas to make your product for you? Or are you just a designer? )
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:38 PM   #35 (permalink)
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The simple answer for you. It got profitable and marketable.
+1. And now the industry (or at least part of it) is in the tricky spot where there is real money to be made, but mostly only in the mainstream.
Fact is that it is expensive to serve small niche markets. The hardcore community is way too small (and probably too price sensitive) to make much of a profit.
As a result the big players all aim for the mainstream market - or (in case of the less imaginative ones) 'artifically' try to make it a bigger portion of the overall market by pushing mainstream products but calling them 'core' (whatever that means...).
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:42 PM   #36 (permalink)
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+1. And now the industry (or at least part of it) is in the tricky spot where there is real money to be made, but mostly only in the mainstream.
Fact is that it is expensive to serve small niche markets. The hardcore community is way too small (and probably too price sensitive) to make much of a profit.
As a result the big players all aim for the mainstream market - or (in case of the less imaginative ones) 'artifically' try to make it a bigger portion of the overall market by pushing mainstream products but calling them 'core' (whatever that means...).
Oh I've said it for years that the Core market doesn't do shit for snowboarding. Hell if it did I wouldn't have to do product reviews, those only exist for the guys that go 10 days a year and gear whores that don't ride enough. I don't see a 100 day a year 19 year old Snow Carnie giving a fuck what I said about a board.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:47 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by duh View Post
It's not that Burton hasn't done good things for the industry. It is the fact that Burton takes credit for everything. The whole attitude of "I invented" that simply isn't the truth, just a really well marketed spin. Snurfer, Sims and Winterstick were all making boards when Jake came out with his first board. His first board was basically the same product snurfer had already been selling for years.
I am not sure whether you are referring to the specific documentary or are speaking in general. I have not seen the piece, so cannot comment on that specifically. But if it is the latter, I strongly disagree - in my experience (both from what I read in the media and personal interactions) Jake has been nothing but gracious and has always gone out of his way to give credit other people in the industry.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Oh I've said it for years that the Core market doesn't do shit for snowboarding. Hell if it did I wouldn't have to do product reviews, those only exist for the guys that go 10 days a year and gear whores that don't ride enough. I don't see a 100 day a year 19 year old Snow Carnie giving a fuck what I said about a board.
Exactly. For the big players (and anybody who wants to get big) it is just not worth it to cater to the small number of hardcore rides. Anybody who does not accept that fact is deluded.
People whining on these boards that Burton, Union, Mervin, NS, etc. do not care about them are both right and wrong - they are factually correct (these guys care more about the thousands of 10 days/year people shuffling through BC Sport or Walmart than the 100 days/year enthusiast) but wrong to expect anything else.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:47 PM   #39 (permalink)
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It seems that people are getting 2 different concepts confused here. Although the two concepts may overlap slightly in some ways, they are two separate concepts...

One is the impact Burton has on their manufacturer competitors (other snowboard/gear manufacturers). IMO, (almost) all is fair in competition of like businesses. Burton has done an excellent job of retaining a majority market share. Burton can not be to blame for using their name, power, influence, money, etc. to retain their market share in the very competitive market that snowboarding has become. Business is dog eat dog..

The second concept being Burtons impact on retail shops. The retail shops are essentially Burton's customers - the retail shops are the distributor of Burton's products to the end user/ consumer. As BurtonAvenger and others have mentioned, Burton has done a lot of questionable things to the retail shops. Burton seems to have taken the stance of "It is a privilege for your shop to carry our products," which IMO, is completely wrong- it is no way to treat your customer.

Also, the fact that Burton is opening up their "Flagship Stores" and pushing products direct from their website would rub me the wrong way as a retail shop..

Being in business, I completely understand the need to protect your market share from competition at all costs.
I also understand that customers are of the utmost importance, and need to be treated accordingly. Things change, and you never know when you will regret burning those bridges..
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