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Old 12-25-2012, 02:59 PM   #31 (permalink)
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dog,
rest your ankle, ice/warm/ice/warm, range of motion and keep the swelling down. Ankle injuries is not taken care of can come back and haunt you for a looong time.

some days just suck....ride to ride another day and don't waste your self for a season. Yesterday...day 6 of season 10-11, age 54, I sucked...my front shin muscle was killing me, could not get any power for toeside and my body was not able to handle only 1 days rest...rode on sat. my mind said i can do more but my body was not into it.

all instructors are not created equal nor are a good match nor may have the skills to help you learn.

don't worry about the terrain of the hill some are more mellow and some are steep...baker is a bitch to learn on...i thought the bunny hill was steep til a bud took me up a couple of double blacks....it gave me perspective and was then able to attack the bunny hill...just a matter of mental perspective.

as for calf burn, part is technique, part is lactic acid/hydration, muscle strength/conditioning. I still have calf burn for 2-3 runs then it goes away.

it sounds like the instructor was too much ego into being an instructor...instead of helping you to learn
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:35 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowRock View Post
Torpedo was a bit harsh and by no means would I discredit any of the great information snowwolf and others share on riding techniques and learning.... But I think you might have a little too much information floating around in your noggin.

I applaud you for doing your homework when getting into the sport and I agree you don't necessarily want to develop bad habits but there is something to be said for simply getting down the mountain without worrying about the specific types of techniques you are using. Simply try to get comfortable on the snow bad habits or not and then grow/work in technique from there.

Maybe that is terrible advice but I just cant imagine learning to ride with all that jargon floating around my head.
I was thinking the same thing. I didn't learn 'til I was 40. I had surfed my whole life, so I thought this would be "easy." Still, I took a lesson, mainly because the resort (Okemo) offered a free ticket to my friend for bringing me in. I didn't know shit about snowboarding, and I'm glad. The op does seem to have way over-studied before he went for his lesson.

My first lesson was okay. They only gave a lower-mountain lift ticket, so I couldn't do too much damage. After the lesson was over, they let us go. All I can remember is falling constantly, and HARD. I went home and couldn't move for three days. Even rolling over in bed was difficult. But I went out the next weekend, this time to Mt. Snow. No lesson. My friend (a skier his whole life) thought I was doing fine. I did a couple of runs on the bunny, and he said "Come on, let's go!" and took me to the top. LOL! It took me 45 minutes to get down Mountain Road, falling every 100 yards. A couple of times, falling hard enough to wonder if I'd get back up. "What the f*ck am I doing?!" I thought.

Talked to another friend who gave me the old snowboard rule: always go at least three times. The first two will suck. The third one, it will all click.

We went back to Okemo. Sure enough, we went to the top on the first run, I took off and it felt like I knew what I was doing! I still fell, and falling was pretty much part of the deal for the first couple of seasons, but at least I knew HOW to fall without hurting myself.

I rode enough so that last year I missed the entire season. Between riding and beach volleyball, I tore my metatarsal tendon and chipped my ankle bone. Needed major foot surgery, on my back for weeks, on crutches and PT for six months. Finally got back on the mountain a couple of weeks ago at Stowe, several pounds heavier due to lack of activity, but we went right to the top again, and despite a bit of nervousness (do I still know how to do this?) had a great time.

Just empty your head and feel the board under your feet. I can't imagine having to "think" about the turns I'm going to make. Once you know how to lift one foot, twist the other, swing your hips around, etc, just ride. Practice. Practice, then practice some more. Maybe take another lesson, but keep going out. Your foot will heal. Your over thinking it all is what has to get better. Ooohhhhhhhhmmmmm.
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:40 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathfuldeity View Post
dog,
rest your ankle, ice/warm/ice/warm, range of motion and keep the swelling down. Ankle injuries is not taken care of can come back and haunt you for a looong time.

some days just suck....ride to ride another day and don't waste your self for a season. Yesterday...day 6 of season 10-11, age 54, I sucked...my front shin muscle was killing me, could not get any power for toeside and my body was not able to handle only 1 days rest...rode on sat. my mind said i can do more but my body was not into it.

all instructors are not created equal nor are a good match nor may have the skills to help you learn.

don't worry about the terrain of the hill some are more mellow and some are steep...baker is a bitch to learn on...i thought the bunny hill was steep til a bud took me up a couple of double blacks....it gave me perspective and was then able to attack the bunny hill...just a matter of mental perspective.

as for calf burn, part is technique, part is lactic acid/hydration, muscle strength/conditioning. I still have calf burn for 2-3 runs then it goes away.

it sounds like the instructor was too much ego into being an instructor...instead of helping you to learn
Good advice thanks. I've been icing/hot water bottling my ankle and massaging with tiger's balm and working the ROM.

As for the instructor, I just don't think he had any idea what to do with someone who wasn't 10 and could already strap in and straight line a mellow slope. Doesn't make him any less of a douche, but just the way it is.

I honestly could have done just as well by myself I think. What I wanted was someone to correct my mistakes and give me feedback. Unfortunately this tool didn't do that.

When I went back up Saturday I actually negotiated linked turns down the bunny hill for 2 or 3 runs with little or no issue. Almost caught an edge once, but felt it and corrected. I was really focusing on leaning what feels like forward and placing more weight on my lead foot while pointing or turning starting with my shoulder. Still tough to do when your lead ankle is all fucked up.

So, I'll work on pivot turns to deal with the steeper sections and keep practicing. I'm just torqued because I took 2 weeks off work to ride and so far I've got a couple of half days in. I was hoping to get almost half my days this season over these 2 weeks. More than a little disappointing.

Oh and the burn I'm getting isn't so much calf. I'm in pretty good shape and the only problem I have is in my quads in a pretty focused area above my knees when I'm side slipping on heel edge for too long. I don't really side slip on my toe because I like to see where I'm going and I'm way more comfortable on my toe edge so I tend to traverse fine even on the steeper stuff.

The biggest issue I have is that all the runs at Shames converge in one area under the only chair (old school 2 seater) that is a littered with small drops, steep sections, and uneven terrain. I'm not comfortable bombing down it and it's too fucked up for my wide noob turns. That's why I'm going to work on quick sort of "hop" pivot turns to deal with that area and have to side slip less. At least that's the plan at this point. Unless of course someone has some better ideas...?

Thanks all

Last edited by OldDog; 12-25-2012 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 06:29 PM   #34 (permalink)
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It's good that you're so keen to learn and have clearly absorbed a lot from this forum but perhaps you need to empty your cup...

Slow down and learn each stage properly before trying to jump to the next. It's the quickest route in the long run. The more solid each foundation, the easier the jump to the next level will be.

If you have good edge control you can get down anything (in a side slip) so stop worrying about the steeps and worry about the basics. Once you have good edge control, there's not much need to crash and hurt yourself. Be in control and use that as your platform to progressing.

I don't know how steep your area is but I bet it's not actually as steep as you think anyway. Give it a few days/weeks riding and it probably wont seem that steep anymore.

Focus on being balanced and completing nice tidy controlled basic turns that are controlled and not risking further injury.

You will also notice that it's becomes much less physical effort (strain on the legs) once you start to dial in your basic technique too.

And for whoever said it's all about confidence... personally I'd choose competence over confidence anyday. But the confidence will come naturally as you gain competence.

Good luck.

p.s. i'm also 37 and have learned within the last year or so.
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:32 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Good points made by all who've said you might be over thinking things. This tends to happen when learning something new (physical) as an adult.

I teach adults in another sport - one that I've been doing since I was single digits - and find that it's SO much more difficult for adults to learn how to feel. Adults are way in their heads about it. Then the body can't respond to the activity as easily. Frustration ensues.

Get out of your head and allow your body to feel. Then afterwards, you can link the knowledge of your mind to what your body is sensing, to make sense of it all.

Maybe ride with music or do something to distract your brain. If you're already in shape, you may have more innate body wisdom than you realize. But your mind will block that if you let it.

I still get too much in my head when snowboarding, even though I learned as a teenager. When I find myself doing that, I shut down the mind chatter and just allow my body to feel. I ride so much better that way.

Hope that helps!

Oh and while Tiger Balm and ice are great, check out BioFreeze, too. Love that stuff.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:07 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I'll be fine. I'm just pissed cuz my ankle is fucked and I can't ride. That and I wasted a bill on useless lessons.

Hoping to be riding in the next couple of days.
Ahhhh my friend it was not a waste. Although you didn't neccesarily learn what you thought you should learn you probably learned more than you thought. Don't be so mad, you learned to find a new instructor and you had a day of riding . And you learned what not to do and what your weak points are.


I rode with friends and mainly taught myself to ride. My first time out I was not even wearing the right pants(didn't have the extra dough), I was wet and cold and it took me forever to get off the couch the next day. The douche who put my board together had the bindings backwards :what:. Its a journey lol....that was in 2003ish......
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:28 PM   #37 (permalink)
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OK, with all due respect I obviously need to clarify some things here.

1. I never said fuck-all about carving or dynamic riding other than the instructor was trying to make me copy him and do some "dynamic" turns before he took me up the lift. I'm sure a bunch of my "terminology" is questionable as I'm a noob, but I have no such ideas. What I wanted to try on the steeper narrower uneven sections (where there isn't room for a wide-ass noob turn) was the pivot turns from the Snow Professor vid I posted. I don't think "I've got" anything.

2. I'm not trying to skip steps or avoid practicing the basics. I did everything the instructor asked me to do. With the possible exception of sitting to strap in when I was already strapped in having done it standing. I questioned the falling leaf because I had read on here that is was not a good technique and although it can be used to get you out of a tight spot, it can also be a crutch and limit progression. Then I did it. It's not my fault the moron kept trying to make me ride switch cuz he couldn't understand that I'm not goofy.

3. All I wanted (other than to vent a little) was a suggestion for a "basic" technique other than side slipping to get me through the steeper uneven terrain with drops, washes, and two creek beds at the base of Shames without burning my legs out side slipping and ending up on my ass sliding down like a tard. I am very happy to practice basic skidded turns. In fact, I wish there was a better run to practice on. The bunny hill is a 150' rope tow and the only groomed green run on the mountain ends in the same more intermediate terrain I mentioned above. I could probably stay upright more if I just bombed it, but I am a noob and control is very important in my opinion. Not to mention that it is busy at the base and everyone is funneled back to the only lift there and I don't want to cause an accident or hurt anybody (including myself).

4. I don't give two shits how old the instructor is. A 15 year old girl would be awesome as long as she watched me ride and then pointed out things to work on with bunny hill drills or otherwise. This moron gave me absolutely zero feedback other than "arms higher". Not to mention the fucker was 31 years old. That makes all his bullshit bragging about freestyle coaching and competition all the more ridiculous.

5. I've watched all your videos Snowolf (more than once) along with the SA learn to ride and intermediate vids, and all the Snow Professor vids at least a couple times. The whole reason I wanted a lesson was so someone could watch me do the basic drills and give me feedback to speed my progression/correct my mistakes. As I didn't get any feedback, I'm pretty sure I could have gone through the drills watching the vids on my phone and got just as far and saved myself the $120. That, and I probably wouldn't have rushed up the chair and fucked myself up. I would have probably stayed on the bunny hill the whole fucking day and been better off for it. Just saying.

Last edited by OldDog; 12-25-2012 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:35 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Ahhhh my friend it was not a waste. Although you didn't neccesarily learn what you thought you should learn you probably learned more than you thought.
How very Zen of you...

Last edited by OldDog; 12-25-2012 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:54 AM   #39 (permalink)
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A couple things:

1. The instructor was a douchebag.
2. Not all instructors are the same. Some instructors click with certain students, others have styles that click with others.
3. Don't waste your time, sanity and energy boiling over a 2 hr lesson and $120 (or however much it costs). Learning to snowboard is a long, never-ending road, filled with pain, frustration, stagnation, and eventually triumph. 1 lousy instructor will just end up as a blip on a very long shit list, which could include injuries, board damage, collisions, encounters with asshole riders, or god forbid, crappy snow.
4. You need to learn skidded turns. Those are your brakes. You can't do dynamic linked carved backside 1080 triple whatever... unless you do linked skidded turns first. When my legs burn, I stop along the side, take a break, and enjoy the view. Eventually, things will get easier on your body as you get better.
5. You have to learn a lot more than just speed control to get down a blue or black (with any degree of elegance).
6. There is no basic way of getting down a blue or black run without skidding. If there was, they would be basic runs instead of 'expert' or 'intermediate' runs.
7. If you want to stop skidded turns, you're probably going to be doing either carving or maybe hop turning. Neither of them are simple, and you're probably not going to learn to do them overnight.
8. You're allowed to vent, and I think the nice people on this forum will commiserate. But you won't get any better unless you put it down, and get out there and try again.
9. Try taking lessons again, and if you find a good instructor, request him or her again.
10. Most of the time, when I take a lesson, I don't exit the lesson any better than when I went in. But the instructor gives you a framework of thought, and is usually pretty honest about pointing out errors. They also encourage you to tackle runs that you normally wouldn't do, and provide an environment where it's ok to fail and learn. In the long run, lessons helped.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:44 AM   #40 (permalink)
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This is the reply I received from the GM of Shames yesterday.

Interesting eh?

1. Doesn't address the bragging, lack of professionalism, or general lack of ability to relate to an adult.

2. Is it just me or is the tone a little off for a reply to a customer service issue?

3. Based on what I can find online the AASI stopped teaching the pendulum or falling leaf after 2009. I can't find anything online specifically about this issue related to the CASI. Anybody have an idea?

4. Is it just me, of did this guy just accuse me of crank calling this instructor? Really? Obviously I'm not the only one who wasn't impressed with him, but to accuse me in response to my complaint? Are you fucking kidding me?

Oh and I'm supposed to believe this guy watched me out the window or even remembers who the fuck I am? Kind of gotta call bullshit there too.

Anyway, the reply starts here:


Thank you for your feedback about your lesson with Kris on opening day. Both positive and negative comments are important to us. Having been an instructor myself for over a decade before moving into management, I understand the department very well. Snowboarding is not an easy sport to learn. From my extensive experience, it typically takes three lessons before someone gets the hang of things.

The first lesson you learn the basics about the board and learn to sideslip on one edge going towards the left or the right (pendulum or falling leaf). This is not only still taught, but an essential skill to master. Side slipping left and right still gets me out of some sticky situations.

The second lesson, is where you learn the same skills on your opposite edge.

The third lesson, is when you link both skills into turns; switching from one edge to the other.

If you come back to the mountain, Oliver Riberdy, our ski school director (CASI Level 4 who certifies other instructors) will gladly go through the CASI manual with you to assure you that Kris followed the regular and normal procedures.

I watched your lesson from the cafeteria window and was very impressed with your progress. Kris your instructor was also impressed, after the lesson he told me he couldn't believe how fast you had progressed. In my opinion you basically progressed more then 3 lessons worth in two hours. It is very rare that a student graduates to the chairlift in their first lesson.

Kris has also recieved a number of compliments in the last few days; one even asking me to give him a raise because of how great he was with the man's child.

With that said, I do recognize that you are un-happy, and will gladly give you another lesson. Either myself, or Oliver will give you the lesson to ensure you have the choice in the two most experienced instructors on the mountain. Please contact me directly to confirm details.

On a diferent note, my instructor tells me he recieved a blocked txt to landline message Dec. 26th after midnight. He said the message was very rude, talked about his instructing and threatened his job. I truely hope this was not you. Kris has a wife and kids, that kind of thing in the middle of the night is uncalled for.
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