Originally Posted by JeffreyCH

What I see happening is no one markets to people like me that take up the sport in middle age. There are a lot of us, people whose kids have grown, or at least are old enough to enjoy the hill also. My kid was born when I was 19, gave up skating at 20-21. Life happens, hard to do anything else when you work 50-60 hours a week to support a family.

Skiing has always been marketed to the older crowd and now has the double whammy of being cool too. #1 skier dad can now put jr. on skies and jr. can be happy playing in the park. Win win for skiing, not good for snowboarding. It's time for snowboarding to grow up, do you really think I want a deck with cartoon boobies on it? Do you think I'm going to buy some ugly ass neon plaid pants that hang to my knees? Fuck no! If I wanted the skater punk look from the 80' I'd spray paint a big fuck you on my deck. (pretty sure I had that exact graphic on numerous skates)

The whole underground, rebel, punk, core shit has to go. Look at any snowboard mag, it looks like a thrasher mag from the 80's. Look at skier mags, aimed right at people my age. WHY? Because we have the money, we buy the gear for our kids, we have the time to do things we enjoy. Go ahead and market to the hipster/core/radbromandude tweenies with no money, no vacation time, and forget skier dad who's footing the bill. Go ahead and make fun of us older folks because we know we are never going to be a pro, and just cruise groomers because it's fun.

Oh well, I could go on but no one listens to me anyway...skate n destroy fools

Originally Posted by BurtonAvenger

What don't you get? 5 day a year riders = rentals, people on low end equipment, or the ones that upgrade as needed. Those are the ones that pay full pop for lift tickets.

Day ticket here are 110 bucks these people will buy a 5 pack of those at 500 bucks. Season pass early season here is 550 these are the people that ride every day meaning the resort actually loses money on them.

Now if you look at gear purchases the season pass holders are less likely to pay full price for in line product as they have: pro form, buy last years, get a discount on gear from a shop for being local, or have a friend that can hook them up.

Now Johnny Gapeass breaks binding goes into shop and pays full price. He might ride a 10 year old deck with what you feel are whack angles but this is the guy that pays full pop for everything when he needs it or as he needs it.

It's a numbers game always has been. Why is it that you see more low mid level to entry level stuff on people than the $450 and up decks, $250 and up boots, and $200 range bindings? Simple the core group that has these boards targeted to them isn't the big spenders.

In order to sustain healthy growth you need to:
1. Get them young and support them early on while building the stoke. The more stoked a kid is on snowboarding at a young age the more likely they are to stick with it through and through. (Something snowboarding is not good at as most ski schools start snowboarding at age 7, skis as early as age 2)
2. Keep costs prohibitive. (Once again pricepoints have jumped again due to China realizing they are the super power and demanding higher wages, rising cost of oil for shipping, and the general global climate)
3. Learning curve which snowboarding has the hardest of all the snow sliding sports except possibly ski bikes and snow skates. Turning on skis in 1 day typically 3 days for snowboarding. Looking at the cost of rentals, ticket, and other ancillary gear it's an investment just to try.
4. Time. With all the people popping out babies and trying to make ends meet finding time is a luxury to these people. Sit in traffic there and back, stand in line, slide down the hill, pay money, etc. etc. or stay home fix the garage door, sleep, watch TV, etc. etc. We as a society have become more sedentary which also plays into it.

Core has always = poor and are not the people that support the whole scheme of snowboarding. Companies are only part of the equation you need to look at the economy, rising costs, time, distance, and health to understand why snowboarding has peaked. Season of 02 was the highest recorded visit of snowboarders and it's been declining ever since. It'll have its rise up and down from here on out but it's pretty much hit the plateau.

Now you can sit around and think your one sale of discount bindings or deck is keeping snowboarding alive or you can just realize you're the minority that doesn't make companies money.

It's a numbers game entry level sticks and rental/demo decks that's where companies make their money.

Originally Posted by mastershake

in a way i agree with you, but you phrased it wrong. i don't think underground/rebel/punk has to go anywhere, people will always express themselves in whatever way they want.

the issue here is not for the "image" to go away, but for the image to expand and include older folks. A company like Never Summer who caters to more of an adult audience, is a good example.

Originally Posted by Extremo

Yeah, I understand this, but if Jonny Gapeass is the hope of the industry, snowboarding is in some trouble.

When I was growing up (early to mid 90's) not one kid in my neighborhood didn't have a snowboard. We didn't ride resorts, we rode backyards, prep school hills, and golf courses. Now, nobody does. My son's going on 11 and he doesn't know anyone else in his grade that snowboards, affluent or not (quite a few ski). With all the second hand gear out there you'd think access to snowboarding would be easier than ever. You can get $100 board/binding/boot set ups all over craigslist. As a kid from a working class family who grew up on used (and relatively high priced) gear this would have been a dream. If poor = core, kids should be snowboarding every hill in the area, stealing street signs to jib up at the prep school. The spots that use to draw huge snowboard crowds every day after school when I was growing up now don't have a snowboarder in sight. Snowboard culture is suffering. And if Jonny Gapeass is going to be the face of the brand, I'm not sure too many people are going to follow.

Originally Posted by ShredLife

do they even make chaps with asses?

Originally Posted by BurtonAvenger

I think they call them pants

Originally Posted by IdahoFreshies

I gotta say, you and BA are throwing out very compelling arguments from both sides here.


But I think I have to agree with the dwindling snowboard percentage. Im seeing it in the form of less people taking snowboarding lessons, and hearing what the trends are doing from the managers at the ski school. Last week we had a school night (schools from the valley come up to the hill) and there were 65 beginner skiiers and 29 beginner snowboarders. My manager was saying how 2 or 3 years ago that number would have been flipped, and that snowboard, specifically lessons, just keep going down.

I would also attribute that to snowboarding being harder, snowboarders start later (ski school starts at liek 3 or 4 where board school starts at 7) and parents are starting their kids out on skis because that is what the older generation does. And since skiing is cool too with those tall tees and twin tips and park riding kids are stoked to stick with it.

Originally Posted by JeffreyCH

What I see happening is no one markets to people like me that take up the sport in middle age. There are a lot of us, people whose kids have grown, or at least are old enough to enjoy the hill also. Go ahead and make fun of us older folks because we know we are never going to be a pro, and just cruise groomers because it's fun.

Oh well, I could go on but no one listens to me anyway...skate n destroy fools

Originally Posted by JeffreyCH

Look at any snowboard mag, it looks like a thrasher mag from the 80's. Look at skier mags, aimed right at people my age. WHY? Because we have the money, we buy the gear for our kids, we have the time to do things we enjoy.